Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Michael T. | 197729 | ||
Greetings, Tim, Tim: First of all, welcome to the forum! Michael: Thanks. I’m looking forward to exploring the Scriptures with you. Michael T. wrote: "Since the Scriptures confirm (refer Ephesians 1:3-11 and Romans 8:29-30) that Election and Pre-destination to salvation are Divinely-accomplished Facts which were completed by God the Father from before the creation of the universe, this itself proves that Christ's atonement was always intended to be limited; i.e. not universal in its practical extent." Tim Moran replied: “The problem with this statement is that it is based upon assumption concerning the meanings of these terms rather that what Scripture actually says. For instance, did Christ only die for the 'elect'? Scripture never says such a thing.” Michael T.: You’re mistaken, because you’ve a mere cursory consideration to these passages of Scripture. I suggest that you re-examine those two passages of Scripture’ namely, Ephesians 1:3-11 and Romans 8:28-30, and also consider their implications. These two passages conclusively confirm that Election and Pre-destination are Divinely-established facts, and prove that salvation in all its aspects and the extent thereof have always been determined and governed by the sovereign will of GOD. Please also carefully consider 2 Timothy 1:9; and 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and their implications. Are you aware of Christ’s statements in the Scriptures that declare and confirm that salvation is limited in extent to those whom God the Father has given to Christ? For example, refer to John 17:2 Gospel of John 17:1-2 - “These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee: As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given to Him.” Thus Christ Himself, in His full Divine authority as the only-begotten Son, declares and confirms that the practical extent of salvation by grace is limited to all those whom GOD the Father has given to the Son. It therefore follows that in respect of all who perish in their unbelief and sin, that it never was the will of God that any of those perished ones that they should be saved, for had it been so, the Father would have given those people to the Son. But He did not do so. Therefore they all inevitably perished. Although many people are of the mistaken opinion that “universal salvation” is God’s will, this idea is denied and refuted by Christ and His Apostles in the Scriptures. Tim Moran also wrote: “Scripture does say: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 – 3 ‘This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.’” My reply: Quite apart from the fact that you’ve obviously omitted to consider 1 Timothy 2:3-6 in its context * and * in the context of * All * the Scriptures, you seem to be assuming that the term “all men” must always only mean everyone of the entire human race ever to have existed from Creation till the end of time without any exception. Please confirm. If so, i.e. if you’re advocating the fanciful theories of “universal atonement” and “universal salvation,” you then have the problem of trying to explain why the LORD God is blatantly incompetent and manifestly incapable of accomplishing that which you assume He wants and-or desires to do; which, according to you, is to save everyone of the entire human race in all generations from Adam and Eve to the end of the world without any exception. If, according to your universalistic spin on 1 Timothy 2:3-6, God wants to save every individual person of the entire human race in all generations from Adam and Eve to the end of the world without any exception, how do you reconcile your theory of “universal salvation” with the fact that in the centuries from Creation till Christ’s incarnation in 6 BC, innumerable millions of people perished in unbelief and sin and were justly condemned to eternal punishment in Hell to bear the penalty of their sins. Surely a god that according to you, wants everyone without any exception to be saved, could have and should have saved those sinners now in Hell. But he-it did not do so. Why not? I await your explanation with much interest. Remainder of reply to follow. Regards, Michael |
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2 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 197923 | ||
Greetings Michael! To save space, I will respond directly to the post being mentioned and will try to limit the amount of quotes. 1) Assumptions: One of the dangers of assumptions is that one can build a house of cards on an assumption and then discover that one’s assumption was wrong from the very beginning. For instance, you assumed: “You’re mistaken, because you’ve a mere cursory consideration to these passages of Scripture. I suggest that you re-examine those two passages of Scripture’ namely, Ephesians 1:3-11 and Romans 8:28-30, and also consider their implications.” You were not aware however that I have translated both Romans and Ephesians from Greek to English, that I have read about and studied these passages for some 20 years now, and that I spent an entire semester researching and writing a 60 page study of Romans 9-11 in college. While you may not agree with me on my findings, it certainly is not true that I have only given these passages a cursory consideration. While I don’t have time to give all of my findings of these passages (I have posted on some of them on the forum previously), it is my understanding that these passage do not posit an unconditional, particular, individual election to salvation, but God’s sovereign right to work through both Jews and Gentiles that He might have mercy on all. This is what I meant when I originally spoke about assumptions concerning election and predestination. These two terms and only used a few times in Scripture. There is very little clearly laid out in Scripture about them, but certain systems of theology have built a mountain of assumptions on these terms that very well may be false. 2) 2 Tim. 1:9 and 2 Thess. 2:13: These Scriptures certainly demonstrate that God’s plan of salvation was always a part of His will, but read these verses in such a way that God has chosen some and rejected others is to read something into the text that is not there. For instance, I could write concerning a forum member: “From the beginning, you have read my posts.” But, that does not necessarily mean that no one else had read my posts. In the same way, Paul speaks of those to whom he is writing as having been chosen, but that does not mean that no one else could be included in that number. 3) John 17:2: Again, an assumption is being read into this text. The verse never defines the limits of those whom God has given Him. You assume that this is a limited number. You also assume that this is a reference to others other than the 12 disciples. The same phrase is used of the disciples in the rest of the chapter. Are these assumptions correct? 4) All men: You mention this theme again in a later post, so I will address it there. However, I would note here that any restriction of the word ‘all’ must come from the text itself not a theological assumption – otherwise we are engaging in eisgesis. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Michael T. | 198153 | ||
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