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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 197557 | ||
Greetings Michael T.! First of all, welcome to the forum! Secondly, you wrote: "Since the Scriptures confirm (refer Ephesians 1:3-11 and Romans 8:29-30) that Election and Pre-destination to salvation are Divinely-accomplished Facts which were completed by God the Father from before the creation of the universe, this itself proves that Christ's atonement was always intended to be limited; i.e. not universal in its practical extent." The problem with this statement is that it is based upon assumption concerning the meanings of these terms rather that what Scripture actually says. For instance, did Christ only die for the 'elect'? Scripture never says such a thing. Scripture does say: 1 Tim. 2:3-6 - "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." It also says, Heb. 2:9 - "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." Further, Rom. 5:18 - "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." Yet, there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that Christ did not die for all. Yet, inferences are made from Scripture to support that Christ did not die for all, inferences which are not justified by the texts. For instance, look at the verses used in your post to support the view that " it was always the will of GOD that they should be excluded from salvation." They simply do not say any such thing. Here are the complete text of the verses: 1) Rev. 20:15 - "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Nothing is said in this verse about God's eternal will for these individuals. 2) Mt. 25:41 - "‘‘Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."" Again, no mention of God's eternal will for these individuals. 3) Rev. 21:8 - "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Again, no mention of God's eternal will for these individuals. Yet, these verses are used as 'support' for the following statement from your post: "(b) all the remainder; i.e. all unbelievers, a.k.a. the Reprobate or non-elect, in respect of whom it was always the will of GOD that they should be excluded from salvation, and who all inevitably perish in their sin and unbelief [Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:41; Revelation 21:8]." So, my challenge to you is this: Support your statement with actual Scriptural statements that say that Christ did not die for everyone and that God has always willed that some perish eternally. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Michael T. | 197731 | ||
Greetings, Tim, (Continuation of reply – Part 3) Tim Moran also wrote: “Romans 5:18 – ‘Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.’" My reply: This is yet another example where you have hacked an individual verse out of its context, totally ignored the remainder of Chapter Five of Romans and you have treated the remainder of the Letter to the Romans and the Scriptures as a whole as though it either doesn’t exist or is of no significance whatsoever. Ask yourself this: Does your isolationist treatment of the Scriptures display the reverence and respect due to the Scriptures? It obviously does not. When you examine the preceding verse of Romans 5:17 – which you omitted to recognise, you will see that the people in Romans 5:18b to whom the free gift actually comes upon are unto justification of life are identified in Romans 5:17 as those who "receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness," and who thus "reign in life.” Since Romans 5:1 tells us that justification is only through faith, and Romans 3:25-26 tell us that salvation is reserved for those who have saving Faith in Christ and for no others than these, it is therefore obvious that the term “all men” in Romans 5:18b refers to all those who have saving Faith in Christ and to no others than these, which is confirmed by John 3:16 which states that al who do not have saving Faith in Christ will perish. See also Gospel of John 3:36. Gospel of John 3:36 – “He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.” Tim Moran also wrote: “Yet, there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that Christ did not die for all.” My reply: Then it’s evident that you need to study the Scriptures – all the Scriptures - much more thoroughly. Begin by considering Gospel of John 10:11 in the context of John chapter 10 - “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.” Also reflect on Gospel of John 10:26 in the context of John chapter 10 – “But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” Tim Moran also wrote: Yet, inferences are made from Scripture to support that Christ did not die for all, inferences which are not justified by the texts. For instance, look at the verses used in your post to support the view that " it was always the will of GOD that they should be excluded from salvation." They simply do not say any such thing. Here are the complete texts of the verses: 1) Revelation 20:15 - "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Nothing is said in this verse about God's eternal will for these individuals.” My reply: It’s obvious from Revelation 21:8 that the lake of fire which GOD has reserved for the type of people described in that verse is everlasting in duration, as evidenced by the term “second death.” Try to avoid jumping to off-the-cuff conclusions. Instead, spend much more time in carefully reflecting on each verse, and the context of each verse, and then consider each individual verse in the context of all the Scriptures. Then and only then, form your conclusion. Never impose your own personal opinions on the Scriptures but allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves by the Holy Spirit of God because this is how God has designed His Scriptures to operate. Tim Moran wrote: 2) Matthew 25:41 - "‘‘Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."" Again, no mention of God's eternal will for these individuals.” My reply: I'm surprised that you haven’t realised what is very obvious; i.e. that the phrase “Eternal Fire” clearly refers to an eternal and therefore everlasting punishment for all those rejected by the Son of Man i.e. Christ. Thus, God’s eternal will for all such people is blatantly obvious. Tim Moran: 3) Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Again, no mention of God's eternal will for these individuals.” My reply: The term ”second death” clearly emphasises the enduring nature of the punishment to which GOD condemns all who do not repent and believe on Christ and who perish in unbelief. Revelation 21:8 is also conclusive proof that the superstitious theories of “universal atonement” and “universal salvation” are denied by GOD in His Scriptures. Final comments to follow in Part 4 of 4/ Regards, Michael |
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3 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 197925 | ||
Greetings Michael! 1) Rom. 5:1: If you want the context of Romans, I can lay that out for you! a) All men are sinners and deserving of death (Rom. 3) b) This includes the pagans who have rejected the truth of God for a lie (Rom. 1). c) It also includes the Jews, who have the law, but have disobeyed it. d) Consequently, God has revealed to us a justification that comes through faith, not works (Rom. 4). e) God has accomplished this by dying for us and atoning for Adam’s sin. (Rom. 5). f) He now offers eternal life as a gift to those who will accept it (Rom. 5). g) As a result of this gift, we are no longer slaves to sin (Rom. 6). h) Because Christ has done what the law could not do (Rom. 7-8). i) This new way of justification does not mean that God has rejected His people Israel. It was always God’s sovereign plan to work through them in such a way that He might have mercy on all men (Rom. 9-11). Again, this is just a short sketch, but while you may not agree with me on my understanding, I clearly have not simply ripped verses out of context. :-) However, you use Rom. 3:25-26 to justify reading ‘all men’ in Rom. 5:18 as only those who believe. Would not the first half of Rom. 5:18 be a better and more contextual choice to provide us with an understanding of the extent of ‘all men’? Just as ‘all died’ in Adam, so Christ brings life for all men! 2) John 10:10: First of all, we have to be careful building doctrine on a parable. But, taking the passage as it is, notice that nothing is said about whether those who are not His sheep could become His sheep. If we read a bunch of assumptions into a parable, we could certainly draw some wrong conclusions. I feel much safer resting on the many clear statements of Scripture that say Christ died for all, and does not want any to perish. ;-) 3) Rev. 20:15 and others: I am not sure how to respond to this one my friend. Are you seriously suggesting that because the punishment given to those not found in the book of life is described as ‘eternal’ that this means God ‘eternally’ willed that these specific individuals be sent to this punishment? I am taking Scripture out of context when I simply quote verses that say that God does not want any to perish, but you can read all of this into this verse and that is okay? :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Predestination | Eccl 6:10 | Michael T. | 198176 | ||
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