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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Morant61 | 76099 | ||
Greetings Truthfinder! All of this explaining away seems like an awfully lot of work to simply deny what is very clear in the text. Jesus is using the title 'I AM', and identifying Himself as Jehovah God. This explains why the Jews tried to stone Him. By the way, I have asked several times how the JW's position on Jesus being a god can be correct in light of Is. 43:10, where Jehovah Himself says that there are no other gods before Him, nor after Him! How would you respond to this? p.s. - You really should cite the sources for this material. I read the exact same presentation on one of the JW sites I visited. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76240 | ||
Hi Tim, You wrote: By the way, I have asked several times how the JW's position on Jesus being a god can be correct in light of Is. 43:10, where Jehovah Himself says that there are no other gods before Him, nor after Him! How would you respond to this? p.s. - You really should cite the sources for this material. I read the exact same presentation on one of the JW sites I visited. Tim, Requiring days of research, I gathered this presentation on my own, using the materials cited, authors noted, and my 36 years of acquired Biblical knowledge. If you find something in particular you want me to cite the source for, that I may have inadvertently missed, I will try. I try to avoid plagiarism and apologize if guilty. I enjoy research and quite frankly don’t expect you to accept what I present, as your whole theology would likewise have to change. I do this as I enjoy researching. The following is two days work, not just cut and paste other’s presentation or to just prove JW’s viewpoint but what I’ve learned as most accurate. My next project, might be an answer to the question; “why most modern translations fail in conveying the truth”. Not necessarily the specifics but the root cause for your and my theology difference. Here’s my presentation in light of Is. 43:10. We see that the Scriptures refer to God as Savior several times. At Isaiah 43:11 God says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not necessarily, using this as proof in itself. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both persons are saviors. And Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Acts 13:23 ”From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus” At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi´a', rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it? A reading of Isaiah 43:1-12 shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation, or deliverance, for Israel; that salvation did not come from any of the gods of the surrounding nations.--Reasoning from the Scriptures p. 413 Getting back to a question I answered some weeks back about my theology of Jesus Christ which I think initiated your question, I would like to discuss the words “theos” and “elohim” “Even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father.” (1Co 8:5, 6) Jehovah is the Almighty God, the only true God, and he rightfully exacts exclusive devotion, as Jesus so eloquently tells us. He quotes Ex 20:5 and undoubtedly used God’s name here since he “quoted”: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Mat. 4:10, Luke 4:8. In what since then is Jesus, God, since he is the son of God, and 1 Co 8:5,6 says, “to us one (Heb. e-hahd) God the Father,” (with emphasis on “Father” ). Understanding how the word “god” is used in the scriptures gives insight to this question. Taking the Bible as a whole, we come to appreciate that god references anything that is worshiped inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18, 19) It mentions many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5, 6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.—Ps 96: For the Greek word theos, W. Bauer, W. F. Arndt, F. W. Gingrick and F. W. Danker, Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. (BAGD) defines theos as “God, god,” and then shows that the word is used “of divine beings generally,” “with reference to Christ,” “of the true God,” “ of that which is worthy of reverence or respect,” and “of the devil”. The usual Greek equivalent of ´El and ´Elo·him´ in the Septuagint translation and the word for “God” or “god” in the Christian Greek Scriptures is the·os´. One of the Hebrew words that is translated “God” is ´El, meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men. It is also used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha (meaning “God Is Salvation”) and Michael (“Who Is Like God?”). In some places ´El appears with the definite article ha (ha·´El´, literally, “the God”) with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods.—Ge 46:3; 2Sa 22:31; see NW appendix, p. 1567. At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ´El Gib·bohr´, “Mighty God” (not ´El Shad·dai´ (( which is God Almighty)), applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).(continued) |
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3 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Truthfinder | 76241 | ||
(Part 2) The plural form, ´e·lim´, is used when referring to other gods, such as at Exodus 15:11 (“gods”). It is also used as the plural of majesty and excellence, as in Psalm 89:6: “Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God [bi·beneh´ ´E·lim´]?” That the plural form is used to denote a single individual here and in a number of other places is supported by the translation of ´E·lim´ by the singular form The·os´ in the Greek Septuagint; likewise by Deus in the Latin Vulgate. The Hebrew word ´elo·him´ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ´Elo·him´ is the plural of ´eloh´ah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ´Elo·him´ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. So the scriptures clearly tell us that there are many Gods but “to us one God the Father.” Could it be then in the since of “to us one (Almighty, Omnipotent, having always existed) God the Father”? Well let’s see. If applying to Jehovah, ´Elo·him´ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [´Elo·him´] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [´Elo·him´] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208. The title ´Elo·him´ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator. It appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number, even though ´Elo·him´ is the Hebrew plural. (Ge 1:1–2:4) In him resides the sum and substance of infinite forces. At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ´elo·him´, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh´ ha·´Elo·him´, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ´elo·him´ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW). The word ´elo·him´ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. However, these gods were clearly not trinities.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon); 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk). At Psalm 82:1, 6, ´elo·him´ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16 In many places in the Scriptures ´Elo·him´ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·´Elo·him´, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54. The 1956 edition of The Encyclopedia Americana (Vol. XII, p. 743) commented under the heading “God”: “In the Christian, Mohammedan, and Jewish sense, the Supreme Being, the First Cause, and in a general sense, as considered nowadays throughout the civilized world, a spiritual being, self-existent, eternal and absolutely free and all-powerful, distinct from the matter which he has created in many forms, and which he conserves and controls. There does not seem to have been a period of history where mankind was without belief in a supernatural author and governor of the universe.” Conclusion: Substituting the Greek “theos” for what it’s meaning is, then we will not misunderstand texts referencing Jesus as God. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “The Supreme Being” and the Word was the “Mighty God”. See Is. 9:6 (even though this is an anarthrous noun). Griffiths, “A Note on the Anarthrous Predicate in Hellenistic Greek, “ p. 315, argues that the rendition “a god” might catch the adjectival force of the anarthrous theos: “Taken by itself, the sentence (kai theos ain ha logos) could admittedly bear either of two meanings: 1) ‘And the Word was (the) God” or 2) ‘and the Word was (a) God. “ It is possible to argue that translation 2) brings the predicative noun nearer to the position of an adjective.” End quote. Truthfinder |
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4 | WHERE TO FIND ALL THE NAMES OF GOD | Ps 83:18 | Morant61 | 76263 | ||
Greetings Truthfinder! Yet again my friend, you go to extreme lengths to redefine terms and confuse the issue. However, you did not actually deal with the words of Jehovah in Is. 43:10, and other verses. Your theology demands that Jesus cannot be Jehovah, but you cannot do away with John 1:1. So, you make Jesus 'a god' instead of God. However, Jehovah is very clear in Is. 43:10. He said, not me, that there is not other god besides Him. It doesn't matter if you call angels 'gods'. It doesn't matter if you call men 'gods'. Jehovah said that there 'are no other gods'. Therefore, Jesus in John 1:1 cannot be 'another god'. It is really quite simple my friend. But, Is. 43:10 isn't the only place where Jehovah states this fact. Is. 44:6 - "??This is what the LORD says? Israel?s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Is. 45:21 - " Declare what is to be, present it? let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me." There is quite simply no way around these verses. They do not, as one JW site I visted claimed, say that there is only true Gods as opposed to false gods. These verses do not qualify the word 'God' in any way, except to say that there are not any except for Jehovah. May I be blunt my friend? If you are sincerely seeking the truth of God's Word, then you must accept what Jehovah Himself said. There cannot be a 'lesser' god, created by Jehovah, name Jesus, because Jehovah Himself said that there are no other gods. No amount of word twisting or verbiage will change this simple fact. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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