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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | zerotheory | 65491 | ||
Tim, Thanks for all of your help. I'm sorry but I see [Col.1:16] as: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. I see it as the "him" is in reference to [v.15]: Who is the *image* of the *invisible God*, the firstborn of every creature. Correct me if what I'm seeing is not correct but: [v13]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. [v.14]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. [v.18]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [v.19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell. Clearly there is reference to Jesus but there is also reference to [ver.3] "We give thanks to God **and** the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you." The passage does not read [God, our Lord Jesus Christ]. [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the **only begotten** of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ***NOTE****IMPORTANT**** The definition of begotten: [websters] "To cause to exist or occur; produce". It appears as though you believe in Trinity as the Godhead. So let me ask you, if the Godhead is all seperate but equal Gods then why is it that Jesus refers to "my GOD" in [Mark 15:34] "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus were part of a Godhead then first, why would he feel forsaken, and second, why wouldn't he know he couldn't have been forsaken? Jesus could not have been forsaken because the Godhead could not have continued to exist without him and if he were the God would have know that. |
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2 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | Morant61 | 65533 | ||
Greetings Zerotheory! Allow me to touch upon your comments first, then your questions. 1) Comments: I'm not sure if I understood your point. So allow me to restate my position and perhaps we are saying the same thing! :-) The pronouns 'He' and 'Him' in Col. 1:15-20 are all in reference to Jesus. Verse 15 is making the statement that Jesus is God to correct those in the early church who believed that Jesus was a lesser god or created being. So, Paul stresses (as John did in John 1:1-14) that Jesus has always existed, that He is in fact fully God, and that everything was created by and for Him. Let me know if this is how you are understanding this passage! 2) Questions: a) Trinity: First of all, the Trinity does not teach that there three seperate but equal Gods. It says that there is one God, but within this one God there are three distinct Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. But, the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is simply our attempt to explain both the nature of God and the witness of Scripture. Jesus is called God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is called God in Scripture. The Father is called God in Scripture. Yet, Scripture also says that there is only one God, not three. The errors that come about when one tries to explain this in a rational manner fall into a couple of catagories. a) One error is to deny that Jesus is God. Many have tried to say that Jesus was simply a created being. Yet, this is exactly the error that John 1 and Colossians were written to confront. In the same way, many try to turn the Holy Spirit into a power or energy, rather than the 3rd Person of the Trinity. b) One error is to say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just different titles or offices of one God. Yet, this doesn't do justice to the witness of Scripture either. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit appear together at times. The Son prays to the Father. The Holy Spirit is sent after the Son ascends. So, this view doesn't seem to suffice. So, the best explanation (as limited as it may be in that our finite minds will never be able to fully understand God's nature) is to see the witness of Scripture as teaching that there are three distinct Persons within one God. 2) Questions: The answer to your question is actually quite simple. The biggest problem that those have who do not accept the reality of the Trinity is their failure to distinguish between Christ's essential and eternal nature and His incarnation. Jesus has always existed. He was not created, nor did He come into existence at some point in time. However, He did take on human form when He was born of the virgin Mary. At that point, He bacame fully human and fully God (Phil. 2:5-11). During His incarnation, He was limited in the same ways that all men are limited, but without sin. He grew tired. He could die. He slept. He prayed to His Father. During the incarnation, the 2nd Person of the Trinity was physically here on earth as a man. However, the 1st and 3rd Persons of the Trinity were still in existence. The Father still ruled over all creation. The Holy Spirit still moved. The only thing that changed was that the 2nd Person of the Trinity became a man for a short time. This failure to distinguish between the incarnate Christ and the essential eternal nature of Christ is what causes the confusion. The human Jesus was born of a virgin in a lowly manager. The Divine Jesus has always existed and in fact created all things. The human Jesus died on a cross and was raised to life. The Divine Jesus will never cease to exist. The human Jesus prayed to His Father like any man, but it is the Divine Jesus to whom we pray. So, my recommendation my friend is to closely examine what John 1:1-14, Colossians, Phil. 2:5-11, and many other passages have to say about the eternal and essential nature of Jesus. Then, put into place what Scripture has to say about the incarnated Jesus. If you do, the Trinity makes perfect sense of all the statements of Scripture. Don't get hung up on terms like Father and Son, and assume that this means that Jesus was created. Scripture is clear that He wasn't. I hope this helps! p.s. - The 'only begotten' of John 1:14 does not mean 'created'. It is a term which is usually used to refer to an 'only' child. However, it can also be used to refer to someone who is unique or in a preeminent position. For instance, Isaac is called Abraham's 'only begotten son' in Heb. 11:17, yet Abraham had other sons. God Himself is called the 'only begotten' in John 1:18. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | zerotheory | 65539 | ||
Thanks Tim. It will take me awhile to digest. | ||||||
4 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | Morant61 | 65547 | ||
No problem! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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