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NASB | John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 15:5 "I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing. |
Subject: Human Power? |
Bible Note: Greetings, Mark. :) Thank you for clarifying your statements. Please forgive me for coming to a wrong conclusion from your posts with BradK. I stand corrected! (And please accept this post as my response to your request that I read 129449) I think we are probably in more agreement than appears on the surface. I definitely agree that this is a sensitive subject and we walk a fine line in keeping with board rules. I completely agree with your statement, "God’s choice is sovereign, and man’s repentance is required." Scripture does clearly teach both. Where people begin to part company seems to be in the order it takes place, which becomes an issue of ability. On the one side, it is believed that we are not capable (being spiritually dead) of recognizing our sin, and hence, our need for a Savior. Therefore, God must do a work in us (regeneration) and the repenting and believing naturally follow. This is how we are able to say that salvation is all of God and yet it is we who do the repenting and believing. Scripture seems to bear that out because we read in Eph.2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." It would seem that God has established His plan of salvation in such a way that He gets all of the glory for it. We are only able to do (repent and believe) what God enables us to do. On the other hand, some believe that we, through the hearing of the Word and conviction of the Holy Spirit, are able to see our sinfulness and our need of forgiveness. When we acknowledge these things before God, He responds and saves us. That would seem to be in line with the first statement except that in this scenario we are able, of our own ability (apart from God), to recognize that we are spiritually dead and in need of spiritual life. That puts the ball in our court first. Does Scripture back this up? It would seem to with verses that command us to repent and/or believe in order to be saved (Acts 16:30-31 or as you pointed out above, Luke 13:3). The doctrine of election is most definitely a difficult one to grasp and I'm certain that no one person has ever had it exactly right (being fallible humans with only the tiniest understanding of the things of God). I would like to say that one reason this doctrine is dear to those who embrace it is because it acknowledges a truly sovereign God. It's difficult to see Him being sovereign in a scenario where He is waiting and hoping that we will make the right choice. Wouldn't that make Him dependant upon man? (If not, in what way wouldn't it?) I'm going to stop (and hope I am not in trouble for this post). I do appreciate your honesty and your earnest search for truth. May God richly bless you in your endeavors! I pray that we all come to the Scriptures with a true desire to learn and the humility needed to do so. When you have time, would you please share your definition of "sovereign" with me? In the meantime, I'm going to give myself the assignment of defining what it means to me. :) In His love, Karen |