Prior Book | Prior Chapter | Prior Verse | Next Verse | Next Chapter | Next Book | Viewing NASB and Amplified 2015 | |
NASB | John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name-- [Is 56:5] |
Subject: Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly |
Bible Note: Dear Brother Mark, Keep in mind that the ordo salutis -- no matter which flavor you choose -- is a LOGICAL order, not necessarily a CHRONOLOGICAL order. Regeneration, justification, and positional sanctification, for example, might and probably do happen simultaneously. We are given logical order in Scripture. For example in Romans 8. You wrote, "My problem with it is that this order would of necessity mean that God regenerates unrepentant sinners." Yes, the orthodox view is that without regeneration no man is able to repent. Repentance and faith are always sure signs of the regenerate. A "new being that did not exist before" can't do ANYTHING prior to the time they come into existence. :-) God divinely initiates salvation. See John 3:1-10; Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13. God must draw a man to salvation (John 6:44). Just as a baby doesn't choose to be conceived, so is the new birth (John 3:8). Now, in the interest of amicable fairness: Although a challenge to elicit the definition, Tim's view is one that is called "prevenient grace." In a series of posts some time back he affirmed that he understood the drawing of John 6:44 as universal. Since the details were scanty, I looked elsewhere. I found that this is not an uncommon assertion among those who embrace semi-pelegian soteriology. John Wesley, one of the greatest historical proponents of this view wrote, "Human beings are totally incapable of responding to God without God first empowering them to have faith. This empowerment is known as 'Prevenient Grace.' Prevenient Grace doesn't save us but, rather, comes before anything that we do, drawing us to God, making us want to come to God, and enabling us to have faith in God. Prevenient Grace is Universal, in as much as all humans receive it, regardless of their having heard of Jesus. It is manifested in the deep seated desire of most humans to know God." The ordo salutis that you and Tim might be more comfortable with would look something like this: (1) the outward call, (2) faith and election, (3) repentance, (4) regeneration, (5) justification, (6) perseverance, and (7) glorification. In essence, therefore, as I understand it, synergists would assert that the old man persuades himself to repent and be saved -- freely choosing his own destruction -- at which point he is crucified with Christ and the new man comes into existence. In Him, Doc - - - - - - - - - - - - Now, before anyone gets offended by anything, I've attempted to only use language to clearly explain these soteriological views to the best of my understanding -- both my own and that of others. I do not proffer any value judgment on anyone of either persuasion. I only sought to offer definitions because I've been asked. I repeat... "Because I've been asked." The orthodox position was not done in a closet. I'd urge anyone to read the broadly and freely available creeds and confessions. They state things so much more clearly than I can! This is what it means to be a CONFESSIONAL EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN. However, it has been my experience that half the questions I am asked are not for the purpose of understanding my theology or even understanding the Word. Rather they are asked in order to justify an opposing perspective. I am not persuaded that these antipodal perspectives are arrived at through a logical process. High emotion tends to contraindicate rational thought. Having directly experienced the long, repetative, tiring, circuitous, and unfruitful threads of divisive debate -- and having read through those of yesteryear -- please forgive me if I excuse myself from dealing with each and every challenge to orthodoxy. No one will gain anything like a complete knowledge of theology from participating in a public forum. (There is, after all, a reason we don't draw the participation of serious professionals!) I've done my homework, even to the extent of reading the arguments of both sides throughout history. When other folks do likewise, come and talk to me about it all then. NO OFFENCE IS INTENDED TO ANYONE! |