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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102665 | ||
Greetings John! How does one ordain something, but not be the author of it? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102677 | ||
Dear Tim, How does one ordain something, but not be the author of it? I'm dealing with the text in Acts 4. . And it says God pre-destined the crucifiction and the deeds that brought it to pass. This arguement, that this leads to God being the author of sin, is a red herring thrown in to divert our attention from the text itself.. Let's deal with the text first and then the question of God being the author of sin. What does the text say? If we can agree on what it means, we can then bring forth other scripture to establish it's full meaning John |
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3 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102705 | ||
Greetings John! All right, let's look at the text and see what it says. There are three quick important points about the text though that have to be addressed first. 1) There is no main verb in v. 28 which says 'they did'. 2) Verse 28 is not a complete sentence. The sentence actually starts in v. 27. 3) The main verb in v. 27 is literally 'they were led together'. With these points in mind, here is my literal translation of the whole sentence (vv. 27 and 28). "For truely, Herod and Pontius Pilate (together with the nations and the people of Israel) were led together into this city, against Your Holy Child Jesus, whom You annointed, to do as much as Your and Your will forordained to be." This is about as literal a translation as one can get. Now, concerning your interpretation of this passage. I partially agree with you and partially disagree with you. Where I agree is that God had something which He forordained and it was going to occur regardless. Where I disagree is in the implication that God 'made' the people involved do what they did. The key to understanding this passage, at least to me, is found in the main verb - 'they were led together'. This passage does not say that God made them do what He ordain should occur. It says that He 'lead them together'. I think that this is what New Creature was trying to say in one of his previous post concerning God's foreknowledge. God knew that if these people were brought together at this point in time, in this particular circumstance, that they would kill Jesus. So, He brought them together because it was His will that Jesus die. Where I disagree with you is that there is nothing in the text which indicates that the actions of the people were dicated by Divine fiat. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102716 | ||
Dear Tim, No offense, but I'll stick to the translations of the experts. :-) "Where I disagree is in the implication that God 'made' the people involved do what they did." Keep in mind that those people who killed the Lord of Glory, did so out of the wickedness of their own hearts an NOT because God forced them to do it.. We see the same thing in the story of Joseph and his brothers and in God's use of the Assyrians as a rod in His hand in punishing wicked Israel. In each case we see that it was the invisible hand of God accomplishing His eternal purpose. "Where I disagree with you is that there is nothing in the text which indicates that the actions of the people were dicated by Divine fiat." Then you must look up the meaning of the term "ordain". To set in order; to arrange according to rule; to regulate; to set; to establish. 2. To regulate, or establish, by appointment, decree, or law; to constitute; to decree; to appoint; to institute. John |
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5 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102718 | ||
Greetings John! What is wrong with my translation? :-( The verb in v. 28 is an aorist infinitive. It should not be translated as 'they did'. The main verb in v. 27 is 'sunago', which mean 'to lead together' or 'to bring together'. Further, it is passive in voice. Finally, your final two paragraphs contradict each other. In the next to last, you say that they acted out of their own wickedness, not because God forced them to do so. But, in your last paragraph, where you respond to my point (the same point you just made by the way), you imply that God did force them to do what they did. Which is it? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102720 | ||
Dear Tim, It's not that I think your translation is cock-eyed, it's just because I have greater confidence in translations that are peer-reviewed by those who have devoted a lifetime to the ancient languages. So don't feel :-( God set them up! Whats so hard to understand about that. They were wicked sinners bound for Hell and He used their love for evil in fore-destining the evil deeds which they thouroughly enjoyed commiting. You have the idea that God made them do evil. No way! They act in accordance to the desires of their own wicked hearts and gleefully carry out the will of their father, the devil (2 Tim 2:26). They jump at any chance to overthrow God and to win the favor for themselves. Why do you think that God calls them children of wrath...because, underneath it all they are sweet guys? Give me a break! I'm not saying we were any better ourselves at one time. But for the grace of God we would have plucked out His beard and spat on His face, laughing the whole time in anticipation of His taking His last breath. John |
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7 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102728 | ||
Greetings John! Just out of pride, compare my translation to the NASB and you'll see that they are in line with one another! ;-) I was beginning to think I spent all of those years studying Greek for nothing! :-) As far as you last paragraph, no I don't have the ideal that God made them do evil. My definition of sovereign doesn't mandate that view. From my perspective, it is your view which makes God the culprit. In fact, my translation conveys the thought that God didn't make them do anything. That is why I highlighted the main verb - 'they were led'. To me, that indicates, as you put it, that they were 'set up'! :-) But, under your view of sovereignty, God can't have just set them up. Their very actions were ordained, right? And, if their very actions were ordained, then they were simply following God's script. In which case, God made them do it. But, I do agree, we would have most likely been there doing the same thing! :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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