Results 1 - 9 of 9
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | angel3 | 142473 | ||
Hi again Steve--angel3 here--your response is right on--and more--the focus is on man and what "he" can do-no sin no need for Grace -mercy-or any seeking of our savior. We must seek to have a "succesful" church -with a lot of people in it.--God may want many churches to have only a few people in them--that is up to HIM--amen?---angel3 | ||||||
2 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 142481 | ||
Greetings Angel3! I've heard the arguement many times that 'smaller' is better. But, John 15:8 says, "This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." I don't think that we have too many "sucessful" churches in the world! :-) I believe that we have to few who are producing fruit to the glory of God. I have not read "The Purpose Driven Life", but I have read "The Purpose Driven Church" and felt that it was one of the best ministry books I have ever read. The only other one that comes close is 'The Disciple Making Pastor' by Bill Hull. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
3 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | angel3 | 142657 | ||
Hi Tim thx for response--Fruit is a natural growth of a fruit tree--as a gardener I have seen many trees produce "inedible but copius fruit"--we must ask ourselves --does the tree have to "work" at producing the fruit---or is it the natural growth from the root---JESUS | ||||||
4 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 142665 | ||
Greetings Angel3! I would say it is a bit of both! :-) John 15:14 makes it clear that we cannot bear fruit without abiding in Him. However, John 15:2 makes it clear that branches are 'cut off' for not bearing fruit and John 15:6 makes it clear that branches are cut off and burned for not abiding in Him. Also note that 'bear' in John 15:8 is active in voice. We are 'to bear'. The verse does not say that we will be made to bear (passive). If, as a church, we sit back and do nothing, we will not grow. If we don't invite people to services, and if we don't share our faith with those around us, and if we don't pray for the lost, and if we don't preach the Gospel, then there will be no fruit. If we do not go, we cannot make disciples. :-) So, Rick Warren simply advocates doing the ministry of the Church in an effective manner, by being intentional about what we do as a church. As I said, I haven't read 'The Purpose Driven Life' yet, so I can't really comment on it. But, I found 'The Purpose Driven Church' to be one of the best ministry books I have ever read. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
5 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | DocTrinsograce | 142672 | ||
Hi, brother Tim... I'll throw my two cents in, if you don't mind. I've scanned the book at Wal-Mart. I guess I might have had some bias against it right there. Books on theology sold at Wal-Mart are generally the first indication that you aren't looking at something terribly deep. However, as I looked through it, I couldn't help but notice the emphasis on self. In scripture, we see great emphasis on God. Over and over those whose eyes are drawn to God change their behavior as a consequence, without respect for the results. Job and his visitation; Abraham and his calling; Moses and the burning bush; Isaiah with his experience in the temple; Daniel and his visions; Habakkuk and his theophany; the disciples and their calling; the woman at the well; Zacchaeus; Paul; many people through Acts; etc. etc. No one comes to God for what they will get out of it. In fact, if a man's attitude is like that, his search will be in vain. Instead, we fall on our knees before God because He is God, and when we see Him, we see ourselves more clearly. What else is there to do but fall upon our knees, hang our head and cry, "Have mercy, Lord?" Trying to give someone a set of rules in order to find fulfillment just doesn't work. The reason it doesn't work is because you can't harness the flesh as an engine to bring someone to a more spiritual life -- at least, spiritual in the sense that the scripture means it. Note how in Ephesians that Paul brings us face to face with a Holy God. After three chapters where he can barely contain himself through the experience ONLY THEN does he begin to talk about the practical actions that grow OUT of this knowledge of God. He does the same in Romans and other epistles. I used to breeze over the theology stuff so I could get down to brass tacks. I'd say, "Okay... Okay... but what am I supposed to DO." This misses the boat. The focus on me and on my doing just blows it all out of the water. I know there is popular theology out there, but the truth always offends the masses. The very fact that a philosophy or teaching becomes popular means that it has found a way to coexist contentedly with the flesh and falleness of the many who are on the broad way. 2 Timothy 4:3 is the way to sell books and seminars. The stumblingblocks, foolishness, and light of 1 Corinthians 1:23 and John 3:19 will not often be sold in Wal-Mart I'm afraid. I apologize if I've gotten out of context here. I confess to not having read what everyone has posted on Mr. Warren and his writings. In Him, Doc |
||||||
6 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 142673 | ||
Greetings Doc! You wrote: "The very fact that a philosophy or teaching becomes popular means that it has found a way to coexist contentedly with the flesh and falleness of the many who are on the broad way." This is the same type of false assumption I was referring to earlier. If a church is growing, it must be fake! :-) If a teaching is sucessful, it must be false! Look at the first century church, the Lord was adding people to the church by the hundreds and thousands by the day. Why are we not seeing results like that today? I believe that there are several primary reasons. 1) We don't believe that God will give us those kind of results today. 2) We don't do anything to obtain those kind of results. We practice the fortress mentality in church. "Well, the doors were open! If the lost wanted to be saved, they just have to come in!" :-( Yet, Scripture says that we are to pray for workers to go INTO the harvest, not wait for the harvest to come to us. 3) We don't have healthy churches! This is one of the primary points of emphasis in 'The Purpose Driven Church'. He demonstrates, from Scripture, that there are several primary purposes for the church. They include, evangelism, disciplemaking, teachings, worship, and fellowship. The 'popular' theology that Rick Warren advocates is that we should be doing these things well, if we're not, we should learn to do them well. Gasp! ;-) Are people being taught God's word in church? If not, let's intentional come up with a plan to teach it. Are people fellowship together as they body of Christ? If not, let's come up with ways to get people together. Frankly, I don't see what is unbiblical about that premise! :-) By the way, the Bible is sold at Wal-mart! ;-) p.s. - 'The Purpose Driven Church' is not really a theology book. It is a ministry book that helps a church examine itself and see if it is fulfilling it's purposes effectively or not. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | DocTrinsograce | 142678 | ||
Hi, brother Tim... I mean no disrespect, sir. However, what you are presenting here at several points is a logical fallacy called a false dichotomy. It isn't simply an either-or set of conclusions. You know perfectly well that the masses will not accept sound doctrine. I know you do, because it is scriptural and I know you to be a man of the Word. And I know perfectly well that numbers do not necessarily reflect a movement of God or of Satan. What is more, you know that I know this! :-) I offered my observations on my cursory examination of Mr. Warren's book. Further I cited specific scriptures that disagreed with the premises of his book (at least with the parts that I saw). There is but one purpose for every human being past, present, or future: to bring glory to God. Any book or any teacher that says otherwise is contradicting scripture. The premise you cited was not unbiblical in and of itself. But all roads do not lead to Rome. The end does not justify the means. The devil is in the details. Etc. Books that are not specifically theological can and do carry a theological perspective. This is particularly the case regarding any book that purports to discuss the topics of theology itself: i.e., the nature of God, the nature of man, the activities of the church, etc. A book that attempts to help "a church examine itself and see if it is fulfilling it's purposes effectively or not" is a book on theology, whether that was the intent or not. It can, therefore, only agree with scripture or disagree with scripture. If it does the former, I have no quarrels with it. If it does the latter, but purports to have some greater source of authority than the scriptures, I have no quarrels with it (I would disagree, but to me the writers would simply be part of a cult). If it does the latter and also claims to be sola scriptura (by citing scriptures to support their argument), then I have serious problems with it. Yes, Wal-Mart sells the Bible. Once again, though, just because they do does not mean that every book they sell is biblically sound. Nor does the palaver they sell mean that they do not sell some biblically sound literature. I don't think either of us claim otherwise, do we? I didn't bring that up as proof, only as an aside. If otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered picking the book up in the first place. Rhetorical questions: Don't you wish that every one of those bibles sold at Wal-Mart would be read? :-) Don't you wish that everyone who read any part of them would obey/believe what they read? In Him, Doc |
||||||
8 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 142691 | ||
Greetings Doc! But, you did imply that because a book was sold at Wal-mart that is must be theologically shallow! :-) It is hard to discuss books in general. I would recommend that you present specific parts of 'The Purpose Driven Church' that you disagree with and then we can discuss them. My points, in general, has simply been: 1) Just because a church is growing does not mean it is shallow! 2) Just because a book is popular does not mean it is false. 3) A small church is not, by definition, more spiritual than a large church. As for the specifics of the book, I found it very helpful and would highly recommend it for every pastor and church leader. The 'purposes' that it deals with are definintely Scriptural. Unless, you are prepared to say that worship, teaching, evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship are unBiblical! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
9 | purpose driven? | NT general Archive 1 | DocTrinsograce | 142700 | ||
Hi, Brother Tim... I did not "imply that because a book was sold at Wal-mart that it must be theologically shallow." There was no implying... I explictly stated this bias on my part, calling it a bias and acknowledging that it was just that. I have a similar such bias against the majority of so-called "Christian" book stores and broadcasters. I'll be happy when I stop seeing stuff that supports this bias! I agree with your points and would state that the converse of each is true about them as well. I wouldn't agree "that worship, teaching, evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship are unbiblical." I don't mean to be simply contrary, but I know you would agree: there is right and wrong worship, true and false teaching, proper and improper fellowship. Evangelism and discipleship can be doctrinally sound or not doctinally sound. I'll try to find specifics from Warren's book that we can talk about. You're right, it is hard to just discuss things in broad generalities. In Him, Doc |
||||||