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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is the NWT more reliable than the NASB? | Bible general Archive 1 | Tsmith | 78158 | ||
Well that is irritating. I made a post, forgot to click note, went back and it was gone. So I will make this very brief now. It actually is not grammatically incorrect and here is why. Colossians 1:15 contains the following: prwtotokoV pashV ktisewV pashV ktisewV are both gentive, showing that prototokos is thus possessed by this group of creation. In grammar, this is a parative genitive. He he belonging to the group possessing him. So let us consider, what do other translations (including the NASB) do when a person belongs to group but then the group is then referenced as a whole with PAS/PANTA? They add the word "other"! Luke 3:12 (NIV) Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? (NASB) And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? (AMP) And He replied by saying to them, Do you think that these Galileans were greater sinners than all the other Galileans because they have suffered in this way? (NLT) "Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than other people from Galilee?" he asked. "Is that why they suffered? (ESV) And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? (NKJV) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? (KJ21) And Jesus answering said unto them, "Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? Matthew 26:35 (NIV) But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same. (NLT) "No!" Peter insisted. "Not even if I have to die with you! I will never deny you!" And all the other disciples vowed the same. (CEV) But Peter said, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never say I don't know you." All the others said the same thing. -Tony |
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2 | Is the NWT more reliable than the NASB? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 78167 | ||
Greetings Tony! You have to watch those trips 'back'! :-) Your examples just don't back up adding 'other' to Col. 1:16, for several reasons. 1) First of all, you would have to establish that Jesus was in fact a created being. There isn't any Scripture which establishes this point. 'Firstborn' here is not a reference to 'created'. For instance, the same word is used of Christ in v. 18 where it speaks of Him as being the 'firstborn from the dead'. Does it mean 'created' here? Was He the first one to be raised from the dead? No! So, 'firstborn' is clearly being used in the sense of preeminence - Christ is supreme over creation. 2) Secondly, the contexts of your examples do not match what you claim for Col. 1:15-16. a) Neither Luke 13:2, nor Mt. 26:35 uses a partitive genitive construction at all. b) It is not certain that Col. 1:15 is a partitive genitive either. If 'firstborn' is taken as a title for Christ, then this could be an example of a genitive of possession or a genitive of relationship. c) Your examples also clearly identify that individuals from within a larger group are being discussed, which is why 'other' is added. Luke 13:2 says, 'Do you think that THESE Galileans sinners besides the Galileans who were'. Mt. 26:25 says, 'likewise also all the disciples said'. Peter was speaking and we know that he was one of the disciples, so it must have been the rest of the disciples who spoke at the end of the verse. Personally, I would not add the word 'other' even to your two examples. But, at least in these two examples, it can be demonstrated that a part was being contrasted with the whole. Yet, no such thing can be shown in Col. 1:16. The entire context of the Col. passage shows that Christ is not part of the creation, but above it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is the NWT more reliable than the NASB? | Bible general Archive 1 | Tsmith | 78207 | ||
--1) First of all, you would have to establish that Jesus was in --fact a created being. There isn't any Scripture which establishes --this point. 'Firstborn' here is not a reference to 'created'. For --instance, the same word is used of Christ in v. 18 where it speaks --of Him as being the 'firstborn from the dead'. Does it mean --'created' here? Was He the first one to be raised from the dead? --No! So, 'firstborn' is clearly being used in the sense of --preeminence - Christ is supreme over creation. Well it is your assumption, due to theology that it means preeminence. I personally would take a slightly more reliable approach and compare the uses of firstborn throughout the Bible. To do this we must consider PROTOTOKOS very carefuly. The first thing we note is that PROTOTOKOS in both the LXX and NT, when followed by a genitive is never used in reference t preeminence. That is of considerable interest to us, because it is always firstborn, with the one being part of and belonging to the group, as the one born first! Should we suddenly stop and change our use of this at Colossians 1:15 because it does not fit our theology? Of course not. We must be consistent with the scriptures. This again ties back in with my statement on the partitive genitive. Because, again, going by the other examples we should be consistent. We should not issolate one example of a set pattern and try and do a total reverse because of our predetermined theology. Here are some examples of PROTOTOKOS in the LXX. All are in reference to the one born first, often followed by the genitive: [[unable to post these here because of size limit.. will post in the next mssg]] --2) Secondly, the contexts of your examples do not match what you --claim for Col. 1:15-16. Well of course the situations are different, but this has established that other translators agree that the use of the word "other" with PAS/PANTA is a grammatically acceptable thing. The NWT actually takes it a step further than these other translations, but adding brackets to indicate such. Considering the other uses of PROTOTOKOS with the genitive, unless we choose to be theologically biased in our reading, I do not see how we can possibly remove Jesus out of the group of creation here. --a) Neither Luke 13:2, nor Mt. 26:35 uses a partitive genitive --construction at all. That was not my purpose in demonstrating with these scriptures. I was simply showing that other translators use "other" when rendering PANTA. To attack the NWT and say "Well it isn't in the Greek so it shouldn't be there." is an attack based on ones personal theology and is inconsistent with what ther translators have demonstrated. --b) It is not certain that Col. 1:15 is a partitive genitive --either. If 'firstborn' is taken as a title for Christ, then this --could be an example of a genitive of possession or a genitive of --relationship. And this is again where we must look back to determine if it is a title or a place in order. Based on every other example of the use of firstborn, I see no way one can possibly justify this being something other than the one born first, and by such, a partitive genitive. --c) Your examples also clearly identify that individuals from --within a larger group are being discussed, which is why 'other' is --added. -- --Luke 13:2 says, 'Do you think that THESE Galileans sinners besides --the Galileans who were'. -- --Mt. 26:25 says, 'likewise also all the disciples said'. Peter was --speaking and we know that he was one of the disciples, so it must --have been the rest of the disciples who spoke at the end of the --verse. -- --Personally, I would not add the word 'other' even to your two --examples. But, at least in these two examples, it can be --demonstrated that a part was being contrasted with the whole. -- --Yet, no such thing can be shown in Col. 1:16. The entire context --of the Col. passage shows that Christ is not part of the creation, --but above it. Reply: Well again, I would certainly argue, based on EVERY other example of PROTOTOKOS in a similar situation, that Jesus is demonstrated as part of the group. THerefore, just as these translators used "other", the NWT does it in the same way. The point is this. While your theology might not agree, just as these other translators have added "other", it can be argued in the NWT's defense that "other" is also justified. |
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4 | Is the NWT more reliable than the NASB? | Bible general Archive 1 | Tsmith | 78208 | ||
LXX Genesis 4:4 And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep and of his fatlings, and God looked upon Abel and his gifts, LXX Genesis 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ismael, according to the names of their generations. The firstborn of Ismael, Nabaioth, and Kedar, and Nabdeel, and Massam, LXX Genesis 35:23 The sons of Lea, the first-born of Jacob; Ruben, Symeon, Levi, Judas, Issachar, Zabulon. LXX Genesis 36:15 These are the chiefs of the son of Esau, even the sons of Eliphas, the first-born of Esau; chief Thaeman, chief Omar, chief Sophar, chief Kenez, LXX Genesis 38:7 And Er, the first-born of Judas, was wicked before the Lord; and God killed him. LXX Genesis 46:8 And these are the names of the sons of Israel that went into Egypt with their father Jacob- Jacob and his sons. The first-born of Jacob, Ruben. LXX Exodus 6:14 And these are the heads of the houses of their families: the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel; Enoch and Phallus, Asron, and Charmi, this is the kindred of Ruben. LXX Exodus 11:5 And every first-born in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first-born of Pharao that sits on the throne, even to the first-born of the woman-servant that is by the mill, and to the first-born of all cattle. LXX Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass at midnight that the Lord smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharao that sat on the throne, to the first-born of the captive-maid in the dungeon, and the first-born of all cattle. LXX Exodus 13:13 Every offspring opening the womb of the ass thou shalt change for a sheep; and if thou wilt not change it, thou shalt redeem it: every first-born of man of thy sons shalt thou redeem. LXX Exodus 13:15 And when Pharao hardened his heart so as not to send us away, he slew every first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and the first-born of beast; therefore do I sacrifice every offspring that opens the womb, the males to the Lord, and every first-born of my sons I will redeem. LXX Exodus 22:29 Thou shalt not keep back the first-fruits of thy threshing floor and press. The first-born of thy sons thou shalt give to me. LXX Exodus 34:19 The males are mine, everything that opens the womb; every first-born of oxen, and every first-born of sheep. LXX Exodus 34:20 And the first-born of an ass thou shalt redeem with a sheep, and if thou wilt not redeem it thou shalt pay a price: every first-born of thy sons shalt thou redeem: thou shalt not appear before me empty. LXX Numbers 1:20 And the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel according to their kindreds, according to their divisions, according to the houses of their families, according to the number of their names, according to their heads, were- all males from twenty years old and upward, every one that went out with the host- LXX Numbers 3:40 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Count every first-born male of the children of Israel from a month old and upwards, and take the number by name. LXX Numbers 3:41 And thou shalt take the Levites for me- I am the Lord-- instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the first-born among the cattle of the children of Israel. LXX Numbers 3:45 Take the Levites instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle, and the Levites shall be mine; I am the Lord. LXX Numbers 3:46 And for the ransoms of the two hundred and seventy-three which exceed the Levites in number of the first-born of the sons of Israel; LXX Numbers 3:50 He took the silver from the first-born of the sons of Israel, a thousand three hundred and sixty-five shekels, according to the holy shekel. LXX Numbers 8:16 For these are given to me for a present out of the midst of the children of Israel: I have taken them to myself instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel that open every womb. |
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5 | Is the NWT more reliable than the NASB? | Bible general Archive 1 | Tsmith | 78209 | ||
LXX Numbers 8:17 For every first-born among the children of Israel is mine, whether of man or beast: in the day in which I smote every first-born in the land of Egypt, I sanctified them to myself. LXX Numbers 18:15 And every thing that opens the womb of all flesh, whatsoever they bring to the Lord, whether man or beast, shall be thine: only the first-born of men shall be surely redeemed, and thou shalt redeem the first-born of unclean cattle. LXX Numbers 18:17 But thou shalt not redeem the first-born of calves and the first-born of sheep and the first-born of goats; they are holy: and thou shalt pour their blood upon the altar, and thou shalt offer the fat as a burnt-offering for a smell of sweet savour to the Lord. LXX Numbers 26:5 Ruben was the first-born of Israel: and the sons of ruben, Enoch, and the family of Enoch; to Phallu belongs the family of the Phalluites. LXX Deuteronomy 12:6 And ye shall carry thither your whole-burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, and your first-fruits, and your vowed-offerings, and your freewill-offerings, and your offerings of thanksgiving, the first-born of your herds, and of your flocks. LXX Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou shalt not be able to eat in thy cities the tithe of thy corn, and of thy wine, and of thine oil, the first-born of thine herd and of thy flock, and all your vows as many as ye shall have vowed, and your thank-offerings, and the first-fruits of thine hands. LXX Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat it in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to have his name called there; ye shall bring the tithe of thy corn and of thy wine, and of thine oil, the first-born of thy herd and of thy flock, that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. LXX Deuteronomy 15:19 Every first-born that shall be born among thy kine and thy sheep, thou shalt sanctify the males to the Lord thy God; thou shalt not work with thy first-born calf, and thou shalt not shear the first-born of thy sheep. LXX Deuteronomy 33:17 His beauty is as the firstling of his bull, his horns are the horns of a unicorn; with them he shall thrust the nations at once, even from the end of the earth: these are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and these are the thousands of Manasse. LXX Joshua 17:1 And the borders of the tribe of the children of Manasse, (for he was the first-born of Joseph) assigned to Machir the firstborn of Manasse the father of Galaad, for he was a warrior, were in the land of Galaad and of Basan. LXX 2 Samuel 3:2 (LXX, 2 Kings)And sons were born to David in Chebron: and his first-born was Ammon the son of Achinoom the Jezraelitess. LXX 1 Chronicles 1:29 And these are their generations: the first-born of Ismael, Nabaeoth, and Kedar, Nabdeel, Massam, LXX 1 Chronicles 2:3 The sons of Juda; Er, Aunan, Selom. These three were born to him of the daughter of Sava the Chananitish woman: and Er, the first-born of Juda, was wicked before the Lord, and he slew him. LXX 1 Chronicles 2:25 And the sons of Jerameel the first-born of Esron were, the first-born Ram, and Banaa, and Aram, and Asan his brother. LXX 1 Chronicles 2:27 And the sons of Ram the first-born of Jerameel were Maas, and Jamin, and Acor. LXX 1 Chronicles 2:42 And the sons of Chaleb the brother of Jerameel were, Marisa his first-born, he is the father of Ziph:-- and the sons of Marisa the father of Chebron. LXX 1 Chronicles 2:50 These were the sons of Chaleb: the sons of Or the first-born of Ephratha; Sobal the father of Cariathiarim, LXX 1 Chronicles 3:15 And the sons of Josia; the first-born Joanan, the second Joakim, the third Sedekias, the fourth Salum. LXX 1 Chronicles 4:4 And Phanuel the father of Gedor, and Jazer the father of Osan: these are the sons of Or, the first-born of Ephratha, the father of Baethalaen. LXX 1 Chronicles 5:1 And the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but because of his going up to his father's couch, his father gave his blessing to his son Joseph, even the son Israel; and he was not reckoned as first-born; LXX 1 Chronicles 5:3 The sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel; Enoch, and Phallus, Asrom, and Charmi. LXX 1 Chronicles 6:28 The sons of Samuel; the first-born Sani, and Abia. LXX 1 Chronicles 8:30 And her first-born son was Abdon, and Sur, and Kis, and Baal, and Nadab, and Ner, LXX 1 Chronicles 9:36 And his first-born son was Abdon, and he had Sur, and Kis, and Baal, and Ner, and Nadab, LXX 1 Chronicles 26:6 And to Samaias his son were born the sons of his first-born, chiefs over the house of their father, for they were mighty. LXX Nehemiah 10:36 the first-born of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the first-born of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, for the priests that minister in the house of our God. LXX Psalm 135:8 Who smote the first-born of Egypt, both man and beast. |
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