Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68994 | ||
"If you want to drink fine that is between you and God. Why does anyone feel it is necessary to justify their private actions on this forum?" I don't know. Why do you? :) For everyone saying that they want to terminate this already humongous thread, people on all sides certainly want THEIR word to be the last one. I think we understand the positions of our respective opponents, and how wrong they are. Time to put this aside. --Joe! |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 69021 | ||
Joe The thread is now restricted so I will let you be the last word. Well since I saying that I guess I'm the last. :-) Be blessed and be a blessing EdB |
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3 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | charis | 69401 | ||
Dear Ed, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Well, the Lord said the first shall be last, and the last shall be first! :-) (I'm pretty certain it won't be the last!) My brother, please understand that this post is not 'aimed' at you personally. Because we were discussing this issue together, I just decide to re-start it here. It seems this thread has been resurrected, so I would like to make a further comment... The original question asked if Jesus made a mistake by turning water into wine. This evolved into a discussion as to what the word wine meant, i.e. was alcoholic content a necessary part of the meaning. Up to this point things were fine, and most agreed that the word wine itself did not 'necessarily' mean alcoholic. Then a schism occured between those that 'a little wine' was acceptable behavior, and those that either claimed alcohol in any amount is forbidden, or that 'admitting' alcohol consumption was unacceptable behavior, akin to 'promoting' intoxicants. So, without saying whether I drink or not, I simply say that careful exegesis of the Biblical account suggests that Jesus may well have made wine with some alcoholic content. It would follow that He also consumed wine with some alcoholic content. He could not have become drunk without breaking the Biblical commandment against drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The alternative is to declare that every reference of wine where Jesus was involved was totally non-alcoholic wine, and every instance of wine relating to drunkenness (as well as 'merry' and 'happy') meant alcoholic wine. I don't think that objective exegesis of Scripture could support this theory. Therefore, if we say that Jesus drank, made, or served wine with any alcoholic content at all, we must conclude that the consumption of alcoholic wine is acceptable behavior, as long as it is in temperance and never to the point of drunkenness or addiction. Please notice that I am very careful to say 'wine.' I do NOT see that Jesus ever drank or accepted 'strong drink.' The Bible (and common sense!) tells me that consuming more potent beverages is dangerous. The same common sense would apply to illicit drugs. The next argument cited is 'causing a brother to stumble.' There are so many things in this modern world, not spoken of in Scripture, that could be construed as 'stumble-inducung.' I drive a car. Some good folk think this is sin. I drive a motorcycle. Some consider this delinquency. I wear glasses. Some say I lack faith. I use a computer connected to the internet. To many, this is a step away from hell. I am 20 pounds overweight. Irresponsible gluttony. I have a Seiko. A Timex will do the job. I drove to church the other morning in the snow to clear the walk out front. I could have had an accident. I ate raw fish. (Yum!) I could get food poisoning! I gave my dog a bone. She could have choked to death. Many of the above actions are 'potentially' dangerous. Many are 'unacceptable behavior' to certain individuals. Many of these actions could hypothetically influence others to sin. I find it hard to please everyone, but sense by my testimony that I please God. The final point I will make is the 'example' issue. "I know a guy..." "So many have become..." Misapplication of statistics is an age-old ploy to sway listeners from the truth. Many Christian men have consumed wine for 2,000 years without becoming addicts, or causing those around them to fall to hell. I don't have any numbers, but I suspect it is the overwhelming majority. Friend (and friends), my two cents! (payable in Yen) I remain unconvinced that we are forbidden to drink any wine, and ask for clear Biblical reference to sway my opinion. Kurisumasu Omedetou! (Merry Christmas!) Blessings and peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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4 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 69402 | ||
Charis I never said we were forbidden to drink wine. I never said all references to wine in the bible was non alcoholic. I never said Jesus never drank alcohol although I find it very unlikely. He really won't have needed the buzz. I said the word for wine in the Bible is used for both alcoholic and non alcoholic wines. I said that alcohol is akin to leaven and therefore would be symbolically prohibited from all ceremonies where leaven was prohibited. I said I can not imagine Jesus who was all knowing and therefore very aware of the effects of alcohol on unborn infants would have endanger the babies of any pregnant women that more than likely attended the wedding of Cana by providing alcohol. I said fermentation was not a way to preserve grape juice as many suggest. I then looked at the nature of alcohol and alcohol by definition is the excrement of sugar eating bacteria, to which I can’t imagine anyone defending the drinking of. Alcohol is also a poison to the body and a controlled substance neither of which makes it very desirable. I then looked at the spiritual aspect. Alcohol has a tendency to dull the senses, burr reality and remove inhibitions. None of these aspects enhance our pursuit of the gifts of the spirit, and does in fact in many cases actually retard them. Certainly alcohol itself does not enhance or improve our relationship with our God. So that being the case why even discuss it on a Christian forum? We are not forbidden from drinking wine. We are called to holiness. I remain unconvinced a Christian should drink alcohol for other than medical use and I ask for a clear biblical reference to sway my opinion. EdB |
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5 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | charis | 69406 | ||
Dear Ed, Greetings in the name of Jesus! My brother, I was not accusing you of saying every thing I wrote in my post! However, doesn't it seem that you imply 'holiness' and drinking wine are mutually exclusive? ;-) "Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works." Ecclesiastes 9:7 NASB. "...for God now accepteth thy works; both the persons of righteous and good men are accepted of God in Christ, and their works done in faith and love, and with a view to his glory; and since they are acceptable in his sight, as appears by his blessing on their labours, and bestowing the good things of life upon them, so it is well pleasing in his sight to make a free and cheerful use of them." John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible. "Let us relish the comforts of life while we live, and cheerfully take our share of the enjoyments of it. Solomon, having been himself ensnared by the abuse of sensitive delights, warns others of the danger, not by a total prohibition of them, but by directing to the sober and moderate use of them; we may use the world, but must not abuse it, take what is to be had out of it, and expect no more." Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible. And referenced in the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary: "Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart," Acts 2:46 NASB. Why discuss it on a Christian forum? Because Christ did not prohibit wine, and quite possibly consumed some Himself. Any Christian is allowed to chose whether to drink or not, but we are not free to bind others in that which Christ did not bind. My friend and colleague, I pray (and trust!) that my stance on this issue is still considered holy by He that judges the heart of man. Peace and joy to you this wonderful season! In Christ Jesus, charis |
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6 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 69428 | ||
Charis Very good now prove that wine was alcoholic. As many has said many times before the words translated wine in the bible can and is used for both alcoholic and non alcoholic wine. There is no violation of context interpreting this to read non alcoholic wine. Solomon issued many warnings on the use of alcoholic wine, do you expect anyone to accept that he is now promoting it as you would have us believe? More importantly do you really think God wants us to seek something that diminishes our reasoning, capacity to understand logic, removes self restraint, and kills brain cells? Why would anyone think diminished mental capacity is walking in holiness? If holiness is our objective why use something that has a reputation of taking so many, so far, so fast from holiness? Anyone can pick up the Bible and begin reading in Genesis and they will soon find the devastation, heartache, and ruin alcohol had brought upon various people at various times. Those aspects are not in my definition of Holiness. There is not one place in the bible except for medicinal usage where alcohol is portrayed in a positive light. Doesn’t that give us a clue? When God called men to a walk of holiness in most cases alcohol was always forbidden to them. Why do you think God did that, because He wanted them to miss out on their liberty in Him? Because God wanted they to miss out on all the advantages of alcoholic consumption? God wanted them to miss out on the JOY of life? Or maybe Proverbs 31:5 For they will drink and forget what is decreed, And pervert the rights of all the afflicted. Notice the words it doesn’t say anything about being “drunk” it says they will “drink”. Again I fail to see the reason to portray alcohol in any type of favorable light when it’s reputation is so well known both in and out of the Bible. I also fail to understand brothers in the Lord defending it’s usage when all one has to do is look around them and see all the destroyed lives alcohol had a hand in. While I have been told I’m wrong and even mocked in one case, I still quite sure defending alcohol on a public Christian forum is giving ammunition to the enemy. Some spouse or parent who has been dealing with alcohol in the life of a loved one is going to get a print out of any one of these pro alcoholic appends shoved in their face with the words see even “good Christians” say it is okay to drink, now get off my back. EdB |
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7 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | charis | 69504 | ||
Dear Ed, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Whoa there, pardner! I am not on your back. You are not obliged to continue the discussion. We are discussing the Bible, and I have endeavored to keep my posts in line with studying and discovering the word of God. Please note that for one claiming to judge no man, you have made it pretty clear that anyone that discusses the Biblical stance on drinking wine on this Bible study forum is 'defending alcohol' and 'causing another to stumble, possible sending them to hell' and even possibly proclaiming a 'lie straight from the pit of hell, greasing a slide of many it will take there.' These sound pretty close to curses to me. I cannot prove that the wine spoken of in Ecclesiastes 9:7 contains alcohol. I can only say that I have not yet found a commentator that propounds wine means non-alcoholic grape juice anywhere in Scripture. I know that there is the possiblity that the word for wine 'could' mean grape juice, but I have yet to find a Bible commentator that uses this interpretation. And I am talking both 'old-fashioned' and 'modern' commentators, not a new 'tolerant, enlightened philosophy.' If anything, the 'old-fashioned' fellows never even considered the prohibition of alcoholic wine. However, every one of the commentators DID say that the Bible warns of the dangers of abuse. I agree wholeheartedly with them. I seriously doubt that any reasonable person could use my posts as a lever for alcohol abuse. An unreasonable person will use anything to further his way, and there is plenty of other more appropriate ammunition available without using my words. My friend and brother, with this I will stop posting to your name. I pray I don't cause you to stumble. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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8 | To wine, or not to wine? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 69582 | ||
Charis Since that was your last append to me and this mine to you, let us be fair. This claim of yours, "Please note that for one claiming to judge no man, you have made it pretty clear that anyone that discusses the Biblical stance on drinking wine on this Bible study forum is 'defending alcohol' and 'causing another to stumble, possible sending them to hell' and even possibly proclaiming a 'lie straight from the pit of hell, greasing a slide of many it will take there.'” “These sound pretty close to curses to me." Taken outside of context these statements give the appearance of your claims however within context each carried a less accusational thought and were more of a hypothetical nature. They certainly weren’t meant to be curses or any implication of a negative situation in the lives of the ones associated with that verbiage. In other words I was not attempting to speak anything negative into the lives of anyone saying Jesus was making alcohol. Once again everyone keeps saying they are merely doing a “bible study” and I'm out running around the bushes beating back the demons of alcohol. Isn't saying Jesus, made alcohol supporting alcohol in light of the fact we don't know if it was alcoholic wine or not. What should have been said is, “the Bible does not say this was alcoholic wine or not, the word translated wine can be applied to both non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine.” Had that truth been said at the beginning of this thread I would have had nothing to say. You say no one will use your thread to support or excuse their drinking. No true as "Justme" so ably stated, in the context of alcohol no Bible passage is better known than the wedding a Cana. I was helping a drunk out of the gutter one day, he was so drunk he couldn't tell me his name, yet he excused his drinking by saying even Jesus made wine. This man couldn't tell you the day of the week much less where he had been for the last day or two but he was a bible authority on wine. Why do you think that happened? For the same reason Satan tempted Jesus with biblical passages. If Satan can convolute the true message of the Bible to justify man's destruction he will. And man is all to willing to accept any reach to justify himself even claiming, drinking is okay look Jesus did all the time. I'm sorry if that is unkind or harsh but let the facts be facts. We do not know if the wine Jesus made was alcoholic or not. There are more warnings against alcohol and alcoholic usage in the Bible than there are admonishments to using it. We all know how easy it is to abuse, to become addicted to it’s effects. We have all seen the devastation alcohol has left behind. It adds nothing to the quality of life in its general usage, has a tendency to impede our relationship with God, and in many cases thwart’s attempts to live a life of holiness. Why, for any reason, would someone want to proclaim the virtue of something with that kind of record? EdB |
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