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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68925 | ||
John Of course you know as well as I not everything is written in the Bible, some things we have to use deductive reasoning to come to a conclusion about. Show me the fault in the my reasoning. If all leaven is removed from the house before Passover and alcohol wine contains leaven can we not use deductive reasoning and come to the conclusion there would be not alcoholic wine in the house. Yes I have been to a sausage factory, and your point is? Tell be once more why your defending the intake of the excrement of sugar eating bacteria. Better yet tell me why your defending it on a Christian forum? Yes I know about liberty and all, but defending something that has been instrumental in destroying so many lives seems unwise to me. Tim has proved over and over the Greek word for wine is also used to talk about the juice of grapes and since it can mean both alcoholic wine and non alcoholic wine and since we know the reputation of alcohol is it not safe once again to use deductive reasoning and say when wine is being talked about in a negative or medicinal light it is referring to alcoholic wine. In the same sense when the Bible talks about wine in a positive sense is it not fair to once again deduce it is talking about non alcoholic wine. Do I think an occasional drink will condemn someone to hell? No. But I also know what started the drunkard that is condemned to hell was one drink, then another, then another, then another, then another. One last question would the world be a better place if everyone drank alcohol or would it be better if no one drank at all? 17,000 people died last year because of drunk drivers. EdB |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68972 | ||
Dear Ed, You asked: "Show me the fault in the my reasoning. If all leaven is removed from the house before Passover and alcohol wine contains leaven can we not use deductive reasoning and come to the conclusion there would be not alcoholic wine in the house." Not being an expert on the ceromonial law, I could not give you a definitive answer to your question. However, I think it would be a stretch to conclude the nation of Israel were all tea-totalers. I would think that if alcohol was prohibited, the Scripture would say so on no uncertain terms. What is clear is that the abuse of alcohol ( as well as food, sex, liberty, worship etc) is prohibited. My point about tha sausage factory is: Just as the fermentation of wine may be considered noxious by fastidious spectators, the process of making sausage would also digust many who witness it for the first time. We used to go out to the coop and wring the turkeys neck and then chop it's head clean off! Yuch! But we sure enjoyed eating "old tom"(especially with mom's sausage dressing). It seems implausible to me that a sophisticated society would have the same term for for a staple food item that describes two very different beveridges? "Wine" by itself would mean two different things. One would think that somewhere along the line a modifier would be added (such as "strong wine" as opposed to "wine"). If I were to visit someone's home in bible times, and was offered "wine" I would have to ask if they were offering me alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic wine. This makes no sense to me. But perhaps they automatically knew the difference because of a cultural factor that I am unaware of. Do you know? Ed, you stated: "Do I think an occasional drink will condemn someone to hell? No. But I also know what started the drunkard that is condemned to hell was one drink, then another, then another, then another, then another." I am gratified to know that you do not consider an occasional drink to be a sin. But I disagree with your conclusion that it was drink that caused the drunkards damnation. Tea- totallers go to hell also. It is sin that brings the judgement of God on fallen mankind. We are concieved in sin and born to sin. We all sinned in Adam and entetr life under the curse of God. I have heard many a wife complain that her husband was a better man drunk than he was sober. I've known men, who after being freed from alcohol have divorced their wives for other women! And this after the wife suffered for years with this bum and supported him as he went through the horrors of "drying out" and years of helping him be restored to respectability. I was a rotten sinner when I was a drunk and I was a rotten sinner after my sobriety. You asked; "would the world be a better place if everyone drank alcohol or would it be better if no one drank at all? 17,000 people died last year because of drunk drivers." This world is doomed either way. People will always find ways to kill themselves as well as others. The only answer is the elimination of sin. You mentioned 17,000 deaths due to drunken driving. As terrible as that is it pales in comparison to abortion (in the millions!) and wars, and starvation, and drugs, and terrorism. And hundred of other ways that people perish.Romans Chapter One and following. The answer to sin is Jesus Christ not sobriety. Believe me Ed, I know. John |
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3 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68979 | ||
John Your conclusion of what I said is false. I never said nor did I imply the nation of Israel was tee-toters. I made the statement, that I believe there is conclusive proof alcoholic wine was not used in celebrating Passover. Nothing more nothing less. I also never said alcohol was prohibited either in the Bible or in the social law of Israel. I simply said that knowing the fact that the word Greek word translated “wine” can be used for both alcoholic wine and also for non alcoholic wine. And knowing the effect and results of using alcohol. That one could reasonably conclude when the Bible was talking about the wine in a negative or medical way it was referring to alcoholic wine, and the inverse of that would be when the Bible is talking of wine in a positive way it would be non alcoholic wine. It is a long stretch between eating a delicious turkey and drinking the excrement of sugar eating bacteria. Even the body retches the alcohol when first exposed but we train it to accept and in some case desire alcohol. Your argument on the plausibility of a society having two words one to describe alcoholic wine and non is not with me, but with the Greeks that invented the language. Tim has repeatedly and I might say conclusively proved that the Greek word for wine was used both for alcoholic wine and non. I did not say an occasional drink is not a sin. I said I did not think an occasional drink would condemn one to hell. What is sin is between you and God. What is sin to one man maybe liberty to another. Who am I to judge another man’s slave. However I see no reason to defend alcohol on a public forum. You have shown no benefits the are derived from drinking alcohol other than your exercising you liberty in the Lord and getting a slight buzz. Yet repeatedly people here have testified and we read daily in our Newspapers about the destruction of lives, families, and loved ones brought about because man choose to sin with alcohol. If you feel at liberty to drink alcohol fine, since we are not the ones judging you, in fact we would probably never knew you used alcohol until you said something, why do you feel the need to defend your action on this forum? Could it be you have the slightest twinge of conviction you want to free yourself of by attempting prove to the world alcohol drinking is okay? I said drunk driving killed 17,000 last year and then you said consider abortion, war, starvation, drugs, terrorism. Is that to make me feel better? Oh it is okay we kill 17,000 with drunk driving that is just a drop in the hat compared to how many die other ways. The point I was making all those 17,000 deaths were needless, caused by people thinking of their own pleasure rather than God. Before you turn my words around I did not say all the other reasons for death are not caused by self interest or the fallen state of man. I said in the case of alcohol it is one way people die that is totally un-nesscary. “The answer to sin is Jesus Christ not sobriety. Believe me Ed, I know” I know that too maybe far better than you. That is not the discussion. The whole thing here is there was both alcoholic wine and non alcoholic wine in the Bible. Therefore the Bible does not really endorse drinking alcohol, so why attempt to endorse it on this public forum. Why grease the slide someone may be on by saying the Bible says it is okay to drink when the Bible does not conclusively say that? Would it not be better to error on the side of righteousness than on the side of liberty? EdB |
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4 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 69005 | ||
Dear Ed, You concluded : "The whole thing here is there was both alcoholic wine and non alcoholic wine in the Bible. Therefore the Bible does not really endorse drinking alcohol, so why attempt to endorse it on this public forum. Why grease the slide someone may be on by saying the Bible says it is okay to drink when the Bible does not conclusively say that? Would it not be better to error on the side of righteousness than on the side of liberty?" Do you really read with uderstanding what I write? Slow down and read the following paragraph carefully (I am not angry but merely frustrated). I am NOT promoting the use of alcohol by anyone! I can't seem to get that through to you, even though I have repeated it ad nauseum. What I am doing is fulfilling a biblical mandate in not allowing others to call evil that which I consider as good. Please give me an example of where I endorsed alcohol. If indeed you have evidence, then I need to apologize for mistakenly misrepresenting my own position. I have tried to be scrupulous in aviding that very thing! I have warned others, and with Scripture, to shun anything that offends their conscience. For you to accuse me of "greasing the slide" is an unwarrented assumption. I'm certain that you do not mean to "grease the slide of legalism". Why assume that I may be endangering anyone? I have not put my liberty on DISPLAY, but have spoken with humility. The fact that Jesus has set us free from the bondage of sin is to be celebrated and all to His Glory As to your last remark in your post you asked: "Would it not be better to error on the side of righteousness than on the side of liberty?". Righteousness and liberty go hand in hand. Like love and marriage they go together like a horse and carriage (all of a sudden I feel like singing) :-) You cant't have one without the other. Fortunately for the forum we don't have audio. God Bless you Ed. I commend you for fighting for what you see as right. Allow me the same freedom and we'll be just like "Hon' and Dearie". 1 Cor 10:31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Your Brother, John |
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5 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 69019 | ||
John Since Lockman has found displeasure with this thread and has restricted it. I will withdraw without another flash of the sword. :-) EdB |
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