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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68715 | ||
Dear Ed, I understand and appreciate your position and all you have said on the topic has been, in the main quite reasonable. However, as christians, are appeal is to the Bible and not the A.M.A. Besides which you seem to accept medical opinion that supports your position while rejecting that which is opposed to it. You can't have it both ways! As an unregenerate man I drank for one reason, to get drunk. As a new creature in Christ, I do all things, whether eating or drinkingor working etc., to glorify God. I praise Him for He has set me free from the dominion of sin! When I became convinced that alcoholism was not a disease but spiritual bondage to sin, I was set free to enjoy all the blessings that God has bestowed upon me. This includes an occasional glass of wine with my spaghetti or a glass of beer during Monday Night Football. I praise Him for the liberty He has given me to enjoy the simple pleasures of life without the fear of sin's rule over me. I enjoy the taste of red wine and of dark beer. I also enjoy the pleasent effects which follow it's consumption. Pleasure is not a sin when it is in accordance with righteousness. Ed, you asked: "However since alcohol in fact impairs most every trait the bible says we should cultivate in our lives, and since it serves no useful purpose it is actually detracting from our experience with God. Is that sin? You tell me" My reply is that the abuse of alcohol is the reason for the problems you cited and that moderate use of alcohol does, at least from my perspective, provide a useful purpose which is the enjoyment of one of God's gifts. I would warn anyone that considers alcoholic drinks as unclean not to partake of them! For to them it would be unclean. As I have said before, my interest is in the protection of christian liberty. I am not a crusader for alcohol. I hope you understand. John |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 68937 | ||
John Reformed: I'm all ears. Tell me and the forum more about how defending the use of alcohol has anything to do with your "interest in protection of Christian liberty." Tell it to me, a father who lost his son at the hands of a drunk driver. Tell it to me, a Christian who has worked with the rehabilition of Christian alcoholics, those who according to your theology are protected from this scourge by divine intervention. Tell me how it is that a fine and devout man of the cloth, the man who in fact married my wife and me, on the advice of a member of his flock, began to drink a glass of wine of an evening to soothe his nerves and aid his sleep, and who as time went by needed two glasses, then three, then a whole bottle of wine, and ended up in hospital with delirium tremens, lost his pastorate and underwent treatment in a de-tox facility. Tell me how the professor of the university I attended, a family man, a decent man, an elder in the church I attended, after beginning as a "responsible, social drinker" ended up an alcoholic, stole a credit card to finance his habit, and landed in the county jail for a year and a day. Explain how it is that alcohol for these people provided, to quote you, "a useful purpose, which is the enjoyment of one of God's gifts." ..... You're going to tell me, I would suppose, that these people abused alcohol and I'm going to agree with you. But I will tell you emphatically this: that they didn't set out upon their drinking career with any intent whatever of abusing alcohol and ending up in the gutter. They were not spiritual or moral degenerates. But they became addicted to a substance that carries a high risk of addiction. Now, John, if you choose to drink, that's your business. You say you would warn anyone who considers alcoholic drinks as unclean not to partake of them? Why? Does considering them unclean make one any more likely to become addicted than considering them clean? .... You chided EdB for appealing to the findings of the American Medical Association regarding the damage alcohol does to the human body. A lawyer friend of mine drank himself into a case of cirrhosis of the liver, and he was all too happy to appeal to the A.M.A. for treatment in an effort to save his life. He recovered, by the way, and led a sober life for about three months. Then he got back on the sauce and drank himself to death. So is alcohol addictive or not? John, as I said, the choice to drink is yours, but on a Bible forum to say that a moderate (whatever that means) use of alcohol provides a useful purpose which is the enjoyment of one of God's gifts is extremely hard for me to accept as being appropriate. What message do you suppose it sends to the person who at this moment may be struggling with a serious drinking problem? Is this the way a Christian witnesses for Christ? Think about it, John. --Hank | ||||||
3 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68961 | ||
Dear Hank, Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; As I have repeatedly stated on this thread, I am not advocating the use of alcohol but defending my liberty in Christ. Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. I am sincerely sorry that your son was killed by a drunk driver. I have children as well and can appreciate the pain and suffering you have had to endure. But the villain was not alcohol. The one that caused your terrible loss was a sinfull man who had sinned against God by getting himself drunk. That man was the villain. To shift the blame from him to an inanimate substance is to mitigate his responsibility. No! That person through his lust for sin bears all the blame. He willfilly chose to disregard the comand of God and got stinking drunk. I cannot answer your question regarding why christians would deliberately get drunk. Becoming addicted to booze does not happen overnight but is a result of ingesting great quantities of alcohol over a period of time. From what I know from Scripture, this deliberate and willful type of sinning is not consistant with faith in Christ. We all sin, I know, but the bible says: Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Brother Hank, even in AA they did not blame the drink. If drunkards are not to blame but are victims of an evil substance, then they must be innocent in the eyes of God. They are not innocent, they are guilty! 1 Cor 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. You asked: "Explain how it is that alcohol for these people provided, to quote you, "a useful purpose, which is the enjoyment of one of God's gifts." ..... " The only explanation I can offer is that these people turned "liberty" to drink into "liscence" to sin. We are not free to abuse the gifts that God has given us! Should we abstain from lawful sexual union with our wives because it may lead to sexual "addiction"? Of course not. But the Shakers of New England thought it to be a good idea. "But they became addicted to a substance that carries a high risk of addiction." Hank it takes a lot of alcohol before one becomes physically addicted. In most cases I have known it is the "last gaspers", the ones who through continuous, daily drunkeness finally reap the fruit of their sin. Occasionaly I would get a "12 step" call in the middle of the night from the "hot line" asking me to pick up a person who was in urgent need of detox. Me and another AA would pick the fellow up and take him to a state asylum for medical attention. Ironicaly, we were told to keep a bottle of wine in the car to give the guy in case he he began to have dellerium tremons. He might die on us before we got him help if we did'nt minister some booze to him! (this was back in the mid- 70's prior to reforms and clinics. In fact we would take drunks off the street to live in our house from time to time). I have great compassion for drunkards ( it was my favorite sin at one "dark" time in my life), but I always stressed that it was their own fault. Sinners always want to shift the blame elsewhere. I'm sure that after your work with these folks that you understand this to be true. They are terrible liars as well, and will tell you just what they think you want to hear. You asked: "You say you would warn anyone who considers alcoholic drinks as unclean not to partake of them? Why? Does considering them unclean make one any more likely to become addicted than considering them clean? ... Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. I would think that the answer would be obvious. To deliberately do what you consider to be sin (even if it is not really sin) is to actually commit sin. When a person sets off on a course he knows to be wrong, there is no telling at where he will arrive. I have to get to work. Thanks for your post, it is good to hear from you again. John |
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4 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 68975 | ||
John, I really have no intentions of joining this discussion in length, however I would like to ask you about your statemnt that it takes a great deal of alcohol to become addicted..Having family history with alcoholism, what I have learned is that in most cases of alcoholism there is a chemical imbalance and with a single drink the alcohol becomes a very strong compulsion. The awareness and then the acknowledgement of the alcholic is necessary to even begin to take steps to break the addiction. It becomes a mental as well as a physical addiction as the disease progresses. When an alcoholic stops drinking..say 20 years...and starts back, the progression of the disease has not stopped and the drinker is as addicted as if he had never stopped. I do agree that alcohol cannot be blamed for the pain and heartache, but the person must be held accountable. Accountability is the main force behind sobriety and often the only thing that brings the alcoholic to recovery. Forgiveness is the only thing that brings healing for all the pain an aloholic causes. Often that takes looking at alcoholism for what it really is, a horrific bondage that the bound needs deliverance from. Many do not know the power of God can break that bondage. Having watched several family members suffering this hellish torment and finally breaking free helps me understand because they have shared the terrible guilt that gripped them and instead of causing them to go free, this guilt pushed them deeper into the pit of hopelessness. I think what helped me forgive from my heart the pain of alcoholism was this scripture... We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities...and also Jesus on the cross looking down on the same croud that was blindly screaming for his death and said 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Satan blinds the world and it takes the Holy Spirit and God's love to look at those who have caused us such horrific pain and say sincerely 'Father, forgive them...set them free.' But when we realize that there is a demonic spirit that pushes them to sin and denomic spirit that pushes us to not forgive from the heart. From the heart.. |
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5 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68995 | ||
Dear Gracefull, Thank you for your post. I would like to address your statement concerning tha addictive properties of alcohol. You stated: "I would like to ask you about your statemnt that it takes a great deal of alcohol to become addicted..Having family history with alcoholism, what I have learned is that in most cases of alcoholism there is a chemical imbalance and with a single drink the alcohol becomes a very strong compulsion. First of all, if you were correct in deducing a chemical reaction that would lead to compulsion, then all who indulge (even moderate users)would become addicts. If you re-read my statement, you will notice that I spoke of "physical" addiction. This stage of bondage is accompanied by serious physical reactions to the -absense- of a certain level of alcohol in the bloodstream. It leads to the "DT's and may result in a grand mal siezure. It is a very serious condition. Note: I am not an expert on this subject and what I am telling you is merely "common knowledge" acquired through experience during 70's and 80's. I have not been actively involved since that time. I do not deny that some people take to alcohol like a fish takes to water. It becomes their sin of choice that enables them to go farther into sin they would not dare to while sober (my opinion based on personal experience and Romans 1 and 2). Science has been studying this so-called disease to find a genetic link that would explain why approximately 10 percent of those who drink become drunkards. But the bible says it is a form of sin and not a physical ailment. For instance: God would not condenm a person for being born blind. Do you see the danger in putting the blame on the substance itself? And the defense that the devil made me do it will not wash either! The devil may tempt us to sin by presenting us with forbiddon pleasues, but he has no power to force us to indulge in them. It is the wickedness of the human heart that causes us to rebel against the law of God. Alcohol does not make people do evil things, the natural man is already bent in that direction. He merely uses alcohol to drug his mind against the witness of his conscience. Having begun on this course, God turns him over to a reprobate mind and allows him to go deeper and deeper into the miery pit of sin. John |
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