Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68605 | ||
"Reformer Joe and I have been around this pole a few times and each time I believe I?m able to prove what Jesus made at the wedding of Cana would not be considered wine by today?s standards." What you haven't been able to show me is how anyone could possibly get drunk off of New Testament wine as you portray it to be. If it is so harmless, how can the apostles be accused of being full of sweet wine when they start speaking in other tongues? Why does Ephesians 5:23 tell us not to be drunk with wine if the alcoholic content of wine was so close to nothing? And why would being addicted to much "grape juice" be a disqualification for an elder (1 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:7)? Ed, I know your bad history with the stuff and praise God from delivering you from your association with it. And, trust me, I would completely be a Romans 14:21 kind of guy around you. I would hope that you would be a Romans 14:3 person toward me. --Joe! |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68613 | ||
Joe Let me add I really appreciate you. And I thank God that you are considerate enough to be a Romans 14:21 kind of guy around me. In my case it would not be necessary since I no longer have any problem with alcohol. I have been totally set free. Praise God! Absolutely no desire or urge. I do wish EVERYONE on the forum would consider the audience and be a Romans 14:21 person to those they know not. By arguing if the biblical term wine was a reference to strong drink MAY OPEN a door to someone struggling with idea of experimenting with alcohol. I would hate to think any of us would have even the smallest part in the destruction of a life through alcohol. Joe this last comment was not aimed at you but all of us. We probably will never know who may be reading our words, and what decisions they might be forming based on what we say. We all have a responsibility to those that read this forum. EdB |
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3 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68636 | ||
Dear Ed, While I repect your opinion, that defending the idea that all wine mentioned in the Bible is alcoholic, I must disagree with your stated fear that it may cause a brother to stumble. The Bible clearly and loudly condemns drunkeness. A person must first disregard the commands of Scripture before he ruins his life. On the other hand, to continue to deny that which is plain (namely that all wine is alcoholic)is to tempt one to scorn our capacity to reason properly. Thus one could say " if they are so blind about the nature of wine, then how can I trust what they say about anything. I don't mean to be deliberately bold, but this is what I truly believe. When I witness to a person I try to tell them the truth as I understand it. Hell is hot, grace is free and their only hope is Christ. This may not be popular amongst the majority (especially about Hell being a reality) and it may turn them off. What should I do, give them the gospel or a sales job on the benefits of the new and improved christianity? God forbid that I would entice them with carnal benefits! It's OK by me if others choose to abstain, but the question was did Jesus make a mistake when He turned water into wine! The question is absurd on it's face. The very idea of Jesus making a mistake! My answer is no He did not, never has and never will make a mistake. The arguement could have flowed from a defense of the Diety of Christ. But instead became an arguement as to whether or not wine is alcoholic or not. Luke 5:39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough." Please tell me this Ed: is old grape juice better than new grape juice? John 2:9 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter *called the bridegroom, John 2:10 and *said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." On a personal note, I have had good wine and bad, and there is no comparison betwen the two. I cant' see anybody getting excited about grape juice (except, maybe Hank :-)). Now that I have exposed myself as a shameless wine bibber, let me say that I will come down with fire and brimstone on any christian who thinks that getting drunk is not a foul sin. Alcoholism is not a disease, it is bondage to sin. One cannot blame wine for his fall, it is his lust for the freedom of conscience that destroys the drunkard. Freedom to sin while the consciense is submerged in a drugged stupor. You can't blame the food for gluttony; You can't blame the woman for rape and you can't blame the wine for your drunkeness. I guess I'll never be popular :-) Your Brother, John |
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4 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68652 | ||
John is the old better than the new? Apparently they had a preference for it didn't they. Well the old would be much drier since if there was any fermentation it would be complete and all sugar would have been consumed. In fact it were fermented it would be real close to vinegar. Or it could be the older juice carried a musk that many find desirable even in non alcoholic wine today. Or it could be as we know today the taste buds are so sated after the first ten minutes of eating or drinking that in fact the old wine was good enough. Or it could be they were expressing humility saying the old wine made from concentrated is in fact good enough for us. In any case I assure you in the world of wine making and talking about alcoholic wine, new is preferred over the older unless the older has been 'stopped' and aged. they did not possess the ability to stop wine at that time. As to John 2:9,10 it could be a difference of alcohol versus non but again I really don’t see Jesus creating something for consummation knowing brain cell would die. Especially if there were any pregnant ladies present, knowing the effects of alcohol on unborn babies. Or it could be a difference between wine made from concentrate which was the custom of the time or fresh squeezed juice. Which would also carry the conclusion. I really don’t think you proved a thing. In fact to me the evidence points more to non alcoholic wine than alcoholic wine. Your right alcoholism is not a sickness as is PC today it is bondage. But I submit entrance into that bondage does not need to be greased by people all biblical wine was alcoholic. When in fact most was in fact grape juice made from concentrate the only known way to store fruit juice for any length of time in that period of time. EdB |
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5 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68696 | ||
Dear Ed, The moderate consumtion of alcohol does not result in the loss of brain cells or babies. It is the abuse of wine, beer, brandy etc. that causes these deleterious consequences. One element of communion is wine and the other is bread. We all know that eating too much bread can lead to obesity. And obesity is a leading cause of heart attacks in America. (:-) Pardon my silly joke, buI used it to illustrate,what I believe is a serious point. I believe that all good things may, and frequently are, twisted by sinful men, resulting in a curse rather than a blessing. But that perverson should not prevent folks from the proper use of God's gifts. By banning alcohol we shift the blame to the substance instead of the depraved human heart. God has blessed mankind with the joy of sexual union between man and wife and just look at how we have twisted it into a grotesque mockery of love. Should we teach that sex is for making babies and the enjoyment of the act is a danger and may lead to promiscuity? But that is just what we do when we condemn wine because it may lead to inebreation. John |
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6 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68702 | ||
John No so, alcohol is classified a poison and it does in fact kill brain cells on contact. Since the blood does carry alcohol throughout the body even one drink will drink will be sufficient to kill some cells. Pregnant women are urged not to intake any alcohol in any form during their pregnancy. If a woman may have ingested alcohol in the early stages of her pregnancy without realizing her condition her doctors are allowed to prescribe ADDITIONAL tests throughout the pregnancy and the medical insurance will pay. That in itself tell how dangerous it is to an unborn baby. Insurance companies don’t readily pay for unneeded procedures. Alcohol is an acquired taste, and the contractions your swallowing muscles go through in dealing with high proof alcohol is from the fact the body considers alcohol a non desirable foreign substance. Most animals if allowed to drink enough alcohol to get drunk will avoid all forms of alcohol in the future. To compare alcohol intake to other things like sex is nonsense. Alcohol brings nothing to the table while sex is designed for procreation. Alcohol does not enhance favor or taste. I’m sure I can let you sample wine both alcoholic and non, and you would not be able to tell them apart and would probably show a taste preference for the non alcoholic wine. Since alcohol is basically tasteless and adds nothing of value to the favor, the desire to drink it must stem from a desire to experience the effects of alcohol.. If you can show me how any of the effects of alcohol enhances any of the traits the Bible says is desirable in our lives I will say we all should be drinkers However since alcohol in fact impairs most every trait the bible says we should cultivate in our lives, and since it serves no useful purpose it is actually detracting from our experience with God. Is that sin? You tell me. EdB |
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7 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68715 | ||
Dear Ed, I understand and appreciate your position and all you have said on the topic has been, in the main quite reasonable. However, as christians, are appeal is to the Bible and not the A.M.A. Besides which you seem to accept medical opinion that supports your position while rejecting that which is opposed to it. You can't have it both ways! As an unregenerate man I drank for one reason, to get drunk. As a new creature in Christ, I do all things, whether eating or drinkingor working etc., to glorify God. I praise Him for He has set me free from the dominion of sin! When I became convinced that alcoholism was not a disease but spiritual bondage to sin, I was set free to enjoy all the blessings that God has bestowed upon me. This includes an occasional glass of wine with my spaghetti or a glass of beer during Monday Night Football. I praise Him for the liberty He has given me to enjoy the simple pleasures of life without the fear of sin's rule over me. I enjoy the taste of red wine and of dark beer. I also enjoy the pleasent effects which follow it's consumption. Pleasure is not a sin when it is in accordance with righteousness. Ed, you asked: "However since alcohol in fact impairs most every trait the bible says we should cultivate in our lives, and since it serves no useful purpose it is actually detracting from our experience with God. Is that sin? You tell me" My reply is that the abuse of alcohol is the reason for the problems you cited and that moderate use of alcohol does, at least from my perspective, provide a useful purpose which is the enjoyment of one of God's gifts. I would warn anyone that considers alcoholic drinks as unclean not to partake of them! For to them it would be unclean. As I have said before, my interest is in the protection of christian liberty. I am not a crusader for alcohol. I hope you understand. John |
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8 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68750 | ||
John Since you admit you enjoy the side effects of alcohol, then aside from the legal aspects then you must agree with the use of Marijuana especially known for it's pleasant effects. Your saying you see nothing wrong with anything that just slightly impairs sound judgement and reasoning. Then my question is how much is two much? When you have a slight buss? When you see two of everything, When all your inhibitions are gone and you act in total liberty? Or maybe when your brain is so numb you really don't know what your doing? I think anything that impairs even slightly the traits the bible tells us to seek, hinders our relationship with God and YES it is a sin. As for taste I can give you non alcoholic red wine that in a blind test you could not tell from the alcoholic wine unless it was compared to alcoholic wine that is over 10 percent alcohol or better. Even then the taste would be the same the reactions of the body in swallowing it would be different. Non alcoholic beer is as good as many regular. I came from a state that required 3.2 under certain conditions and may times we would switch it with the regular 6 percent plus and no body knew the difference. EdB |
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9 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68765 | ||
"Since you admit you enjoy the side effects of alcohol, then aside from the legal aspects then you must agree with the use of Marijuana especially known for it's pleasant effects." Get real Ed. That is an absurd conclusion. If I was a runner who enjoyed the euphoria that accompamies running, it would not mean I condoned smoking pot. Note: the effects of one or even two beers does not elicit anything close to euphoria in most people, generally speaking. #Your saying you see nothing wrong with anything that just slightly impairs sound judgement and reasoning." I never said that. It is only your assumption based on your opinion. "Then my question is how much is two much? When you have a slight buss? When you see two of everything, When all your inhibitions are gone and you act in total liberty? Or maybe when your brain is so numb you really don't know what your doing?" Ed, to tell you the truth, one beer is more than enough for me 99 per cent of he time. So, I can't tell you what my personal limit is, but I can tell you that I have not experienced any of the effects that you mentioned. What you are describing is drunkeness which is a sin. "I think anything that impairs even slightly the traits the bible tells us to seek, hinders our relationship with God and YES it is a sin." It is a sujective topic and many godly christians would likely disagree with your narrow view of moderate drinking. "As for taste I can give you non alcoholic red wine that in a blind test you could not tell from the alcoholic wine unless it was compared to alcoholic wine that is over 10 percent alcohol or better. Even then the taste would be the same the reactions of the body in swallowing it would be different." "Non alcoholic beer is as good as many regular. I came from a state that required 3.2 under certain conditions and may times we would switch it with the regular 6 percent plus and no body knew the difference." After 20 years of abstinence I came to believe in the lawful use of alcohol through Scripture and prayer. After explaining my conviction to my wife, I asked her if she would be upset if I had a beer. She had reservations but trusted my judgement because she knows my devotion to Christ. That was 2 years ago and ny wife has no complaints, neither have I experienced any spiritual or physical problems as a result of my decision. What more can I say. I regret that I found it necessary to respond on a personal level to a subject that should be treated on by Scripture alone, but your accusation that I "must agree with the use of Marijuana" forced me to defend myself rater than doctrine. No hard feelings though brother Ed, I know you spoke from a loving heart and only meant to correct what you see as a dangerous practice. I'm sorry Ed but I find pleasure in alcoholic wine and beer and am convinced that it is gift from God. God Bless You, John |
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10 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 68776 | ||
John, All this talk is giving me a craving for some crabs and a Natty Boh. Meet me at Bill Bateman's! Emmaus |
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