Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | retxar | 68571 | ||
I object to alcohol consumption personally, and also to anyone that cares to ask, on the grounds that it is forbidden in scripture for kings, priest, and prophets (Pro 31:4, Lev 10:9, Isa 28:7, Eze 44:21), and thus NT believers (Rev 1:6, Rev 5:10, Rev 20:6, Isa 61:6, 1Pe 2:5). Why would I want to risk being disqualified for that? Why would I want to put a flammable liquid in my body, which outside an alcoholic beverage container has the word “poison” written on it, a skull and cross bones, the 1-800 poison control hotline number, and the urgent instructions to call 911 and get to the nearest hospital emergency room pronto in case of ingestion? How much sense does that make? Did God really design the human body to endure such abuse? If I assume (falsely) that all references in scripture to “wine” are referring to the fermented fruit of the vine that contains alcohol, as you have, I can clearly see the point you are trying to make. However, when I do that, I have conflicting scripture to sort out that I do not know how to handle. How do you deal with that? do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit! retxar |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68593 | ||
Retxar Your right on target. The thing that amazes me is what is called wine on the Bible is so distant from what we call wine. Grape juice left to ferment will probably spoil before it becomes wine, however if it does make it the natural sugar content in the grapes will stop the process when the alcoholic content approaches 1 percent. Then the resulting product would have a shelf life of less than the few days. Reformer Joe and I have been around this pole a few times and each time I believe I’m able to prove what Jesus made at the wedding of Cana would not be considered wine by today’s standards. Wine of Biblical times was made from crushed dried grapes that would be very similar to our fruit rollups that were then reconstituted into juice by the addition of water. The idea grape juice was allowed to ferment for preservation purposes is totally without support, since as I said before it there was a better than average chance the grape juice would spoil, secondly with the addition of refined sugar the alcoholic content would be so low the juice would spoil anyway. Retxar I believe you right our God would not provide wine that has been proven, by modern medical, to kill thousands of brain cells. EdB |
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3 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68605 | ||
"Reformer Joe and I have been around this pole a few times and each time I believe I?m able to prove what Jesus made at the wedding of Cana would not be considered wine by today?s standards." What you haven't been able to show me is how anyone could possibly get drunk off of New Testament wine as you portray it to be. If it is so harmless, how can the apostles be accused of being full of sweet wine when they start speaking in other tongues? Why does Ephesians 5:23 tell us not to be drunk with wine if the alcoholic content of wine was so close to nothing? And why would being addicted to much "grape juice" be a disqualification for an elder (1 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:7)? Ed, I know your bad history with the stuff and praise God from delivering you from your association with it. And, trust me, I would completely be a Romans 14:21 kind of guy around you. I would hope that you would be a Romans 14:3 person toward me. --Joe! |
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4 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68611 | ||
Joe It is with fear and trembling I enter a discussion with you in the light of my experience in the last thread. If you look closely at what I wrote I never said it was devoid of alcohol. If the strongest you had is what they had you probably would be effected by it also. Notice also the use of the words ‘sweet’ or ‘new’ wine. Having been through this discussion before I have pointed out the most sought after wine in all of France was the Nouveau Beaujolais meaning New Wine that comes once a year. They have a festival and the naturally fermented wine has to be drunk within a very short period of time before it spoiled and poured out. It is called sweet or new because all the natural sugar has not yet been consumed by the yeast bacteria and their waste product alcohol is still at very small percentages. The taste is very desirable and overindulgence happens easily. The fact remains without the refined sugar and modern sterilization nearly all wine of biblical except new wine would quickly spoil and have to be disposed of. Therefore most references to wine in the Bible are not to alcoholic wine but rather to reconstituted grape juice as I believe is done in the reference to Jesus turning water into wine at the wedding of Cana. However new wine did exist and I imagine it was as sought after by some as alcoholics today seek after booze. EdB |
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5 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68642 | ||
But the words "sweet" or "new" do not appear in any of the passages I cited except for the one in Acts 2. And the Greek word is different for that instance, anyway, so ruling that one out doesn't really change the meaning of "oinos," which is used quite frequently in the NT in the context of warning of its excesses. My main problem with the whole "non-alcoholic" wine argument centers around two issues: 1. Throughout the history of the church, until the nineteenth-century temperance movement spread like wildfire, all of Christendom used wine in its communion. There is no definitive historical record of anything else but regular alcohol-containing wine being used (no matter what the alcohol percentage may have been). If you are correct about the use of Eucharistic wine, then there was some unexpected "wrong turn" very, very close to the apostolic era, and I am very hesitant to step forward and say that something the church had been doing from almost the very beginning is in error. 2. The Jews still use wine in their Passover. It would be quite interesting to find out how the same alleged move from ultra-weak wine to the stronger stuff we can find today was mirrored by a group that has largely rejected its Messiah. Now, don't get me wrong: I am not asserting my "inalienable right" to drink wine. My freedom should not become a stumbling block for my brother, and it certainly is not a pass to enjoy licentiousness. However, when I get grief for having a thimble-full of the beverage I (along with most of the church throughout history) believe Jesus consecrated to signify His blood by which I was reconciled, I am a little less charitable. The point of Paul's messages on matters of conscience is two-way: the strong should not despise the weak in conscience, and the weaker brother should not judge the strong in these "gray areas." --Joe! |
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6 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 68647 | ||
Joe Are you sure the passover wine was leaven? Remeber all leaven had to be removed from the house before passover. After speaking ot some Jewish scholars the question is still very much in debate. Ultra and orthodox Jews I believe use only fruit of the vine with no leaven for passover. EdB |
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