Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Salvation lump sum? | Heb 7:25 | Beja | 220055 | ||
Dodoy, Yes, that is absolutely what I mean. God's judging the world and judging sin is the same thing. When God say He is going to judge sin, that means He is going to judge the sinners. Judging sin means judging people. You can't seperate the two. The cross itself should be testimony to this. In order for God to judge the sin of a believer, He had to judge a person! And that judgment fell on our sinless Lord rather than ourselves. Had God been able to judge sin abstractly in some other way than judging people then our Lord died for no reason. But He did die for the sin of those who would receive Him through faith and repentance. So saved from sin, does indeed mean to be saved from the final judgment when God will throw sinful humanity into the lake of fire. Sin isn't what is going to destroy us in the end, a Holy God is going to destroy sinners in the end. This is what it means to be saved, even to be saved from sin. If there was not a judge going to judge me then me and sin would still be getting along wonderfully with no need of anybody to save either us. Also, with regard to the doctrine of man. Doc and I are not introducing a second topic without reason. Discovering where you are wrong has everything to do with what Doc posted. Once you understand what scripture teaches about who we are, then you are going to see how that condition is undone. The point being worked towards is that if any part of this is left to us then we will perish. All portions are entirely from God. Yet your view of salvation leaves all mankind, having had some assistance from God to get us started, no we are left to keep our own names from getting blotted out. To which we are trying to show you, the moment God leaves any part to you and I, we would all fall without exception. Should you then say that God chooses some to effectually work in them to succeed (phi 2:12,13), then you have created an interesting scenario. You say that all are saved from sin, but then God chooses to save some from God, and others He chooses not to save from God. Now, that last part certainly is scriptual. But then once again, you've rendered the idea of "being saved from sin" absolutely meaningless. The fact that Christ died for their sin in your view, has ultimately done not one thing for them, seeing as God has then left them to perish from further sin without the necessary grace to "overcome." What we say, is that it all is one continuous saving grace from beggining to end. Those whom He has saved from sin...and those whom He predestined, He also called, and those whom He called, He also justified, and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30) Now the meaning of justification is that we are declared inoccent from sin and stand in Christ's perfect righteousness before God. In other words, this is us being forgiven/saved from sin. Yet you are arguing that there are those who are justified, but they are not glorified. Even though we see clearly that all those he Justified, He also glorified. Which refers to our final ressurection and partaking of Christ's full likeness. I've given more in this post than I can probably reasonably expect somebody to process in one lump, but I'm trying to get you to see that we must look at the whole of it at once if you are to see your error. And so, we were beggining with the doctrine of Man. In Christ, Beja |
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2 | Is Salvation lump sum? | Heb 7:25 | dodoy | 220067 | ||
Dear Pastor Beja, Thanks for the post. Here are my observations: 1. You posted: "God's judging the world and judging sin is the same thing. When God say He is going to judge sin, that means He is going to judge the sinners. Judging sin means judging people." (any Bible text for this?) I deduce from what you posted that 'judging the world is judging sin, and judging sin means judging people who are sinners.' I am sorry but it appears the Bible does not say God will not judge the righteous. Ecclesiastes 3:17 (NASB) "...God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man, for a time for every matter and for every deed is there." Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (NASB) 13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil." 2. You posted: " But He did die for the sin of those who would receive Him through faith and repentance." I'm real sad I can not fully agree, because it seems it is not the whole truth because the Bible says "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 (NASB) 3. You posted: "So saved from sin, does indeed mean to be saved from the final judgment when God will throw sinful humanity into the lake of fire" (any Bible text for this?) I could not in conscience agree, because the Bible says: 1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB) "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all." Romans 3:23 (NASB) "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Since all have sinned, all are sinners. Christ came to save sinners, ergo, Christ came to save all, because all are sinners. And so, all had been saved from sin. But the Bible says there are those who will be thrown into the lake of fire. The Bible therefore shows us that to be saved from sin does not mean saved likewise from being thrown into the lake of fire. 4. You posted: "The point being worked towards is that if any part of this is left to us then we will perish. All portions are entirely from God. Yet your view of salvation leaves all mankind, having had some assistance from God to get us started, no we are left to keep our own names from getting blotted out." To say that in my view of salvation we are left to keep our names from getting blotted out, is not fair. Perhaps, that is how you understood my view. When I said that God works IN man, is that God leaving man? 5. You quoted Romans 8:28-30, and concluded: "we see clearly that all those he Justified, He also glorified. Which refers to our final ressurection and partaking of Christ's full likeness." You imply that 'to be glorified' in this verse refers to our final resurrection and partaking of Christ's full likeness? Please, I mean no offense, but we don't have to be grammarians to see that the tense of the verb in the phrase "He also glorified" is in the same tense of the phrase "He also justified". I believe we have been justified, therefore, we must have been glorified as well. But you are saying the glorification mentioned in the verse is yet future. So then, it appears it is not me who is "arguing that there are those who are justified, but they are not glorified." 6. You mentioned in your post "I'm trying to get you to see that we must look at the whole of it at once if you are to see your error." Sincerely, I have to be grateful for your concern for me to see my error. Thank you. But, as you can see, I have defended my position with Biblical verses. If you were in my place, will you admit you are in error? 7. Finally, on what you call the doctrine of Man, you want me to begin with you and Doc, I appreciate the gesture and eagerness. Sadly, I can not take on this topic for the moment yet. I understand you saying that if I can have a correct understanding of this new topic, then I will see where I am wrong. Let me suggest an alternative. Just support your objections to my view with Bible texts. To all others in this forum, you have to pardon me for what I am in your perception. But on this I stand, that unless supported by what the Bible says, no amount of scholarly explanations replete with theological jargon can change my view on an issue. Sincerely, dodoy |
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3 | Is Salvation lump sum? | Heb 7:25 | Beja | 220068 | ||
Dodoy, I believe its time that I washed my hands of this discussion. Normally I would have known better but your personal profile made me believe you really wanted to learn. I can see now that is not true. At this point I could fully explain your view to another person. Because I've asked questions, listend, and tried to understand you. You have not done so with with my view. Let me address a few statements and then I'll not reply further. 1. You asked if I have scripture to support that judging sin is judging people. Isaiah 53:5 says, "He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities." How is it that the judgment of our sin was the death of a person? And if the judgment of our sins was the death of a person what do you imagine it means when the sins of the world is judged? The rocks and trees? 2. You look for a text that says judging sins is the same as judging people? You might as well look for a text saying that the sky is blue. It is the assumption in every sacrifice made in the old testament when an animal takes the place and the sins of the people is placed upon it. 3. You said that Christ working in us is your defense to God leaving us to finish part of it, but you ignored the part of my post where I predicted that very response from you (because I was listening to you in other posts, trying to understand you.) Because then you must either say that God helps some effectively and others He does not, or once again His working in us gives us all partial help and then we must make up the difference. 4. You want scriptural proof that being saved from sin is to be saved from the lake of fire? My friend that is what all of Christianity has seen the text to plainly mean. Why are any thrown into the lake of fire if not for sin? Failing to overcome? 5. You claim that I need verses to back up such logic then you say "that because Christ came to save sinners, and since all are sinners therefore christ saved all?" Sir, there are children that could show you how short that logic falls. It would be like me saying that I went to the grocery store to buy food, and it is all food, therefore I came to buy all of it. Just because Christ came to save sinners, does not mean all sinners are saved. 6. Yet in all of this you still have not responded to what I think is the greatest hole in your thinking. You still have not explained what being saved from sin does mean to you. Your reasoning is that there are those who are justified and glorified who then perish in the lake of fire? You have robbed "saved" "justified" and "glorified" of any meaning whatsoever. What do these terms then mean if not what I am saying? To sum it up: You continue to cry out for verses to show you wrong, while what you are saying has gaping holes. And you say, do not show me the holes, rather refute the assertions I am making. Understand this, any heresy can make sense out of their favorite verses. It is the verses they DON'T want to discuss that shows them wrong. But I'm finished. The reason I began the discussion is no longer there. God bless you. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | Is Salvation lump sum? | Heb 7:25 | stjohn | 220070 | ||
Amen, Pastor! Sometimes it is time to realize that, it is time to throw in the towel :-( . A good and very well done effort though, and God bless you for trying! John |
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