Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171585 | ||
Dear Brad, Hello again, and thanks for your reply! As you may know, Ken Wuest has his own critics. A study of his corruption of parts of the book of Romans can be found here: http://members.citynet.net/morton/others/greekpre.htm And even a quick trip to Wikpedia will tell you that "Some critics have charged that in specific instances, Wuest’s translations and commentaries go beyond a strict analysis of grammar and word meaning, and bring preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations into the task of exegesis." Kens study of hell is a prime example of this. GEHENNA: Gehenna is a place, better known as the Valley of Hinnom. You should not translate place names. Would you translate the words Paris, Rome or London? Of course not. Gehenna is a source of misunderstanding for many Christians because of what happened there. Refuse, dead animals and executed prisoners were burnt in Gehenna. Fires were kept burning continually for this purpose. When you realise that there was an everlasting fire in a physical place just outside Jerusalem, you can see that it is not referring to any imaginary place called "hell" but simply to the physical location of Gehenna. HADES: Hades, as has already been said, is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which means "Grave". The representations that Mr. Kenneth Wuest makes about Hades are his own pre-conceived notions, and are not derived from the word Hades. The fact that Hades is used as a translation of Sheol can be seen from the Septuagent OT. TARTARUS: Strangely enough, Mr. Wuest makes no attempt to explain the meaning of the word Tartarus. I will attempt to do so with an explanation of II Peter 2:4. The misunderstanding of this verse has arisen mostly because it is taken totally out of the context of the passage. II Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; An interesting and clearly deliberate contrast. God spared not those which sinned, and spared not the old world, but saved Noah from the flood. Clearly one and the same incident is referred to here - the flood. Those that sinned were killed in the flood, but righteous Noah was saved. The "angels" being referred to then are not the angels of heaven but humans - the "sons of God" from Genesis 6:2 who "kept not their first estate," but saw the daughters of men and did evil in the sight of the Lord. II Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: Again, a contrast. Sodom and Gomorrha were condemned and overthrown, while Lot was saved. One and the same incident is referred to here - the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. Peter is therefore using these two incidents to contrast the judgment on the wicked with the salvation of the righteous. This lesson of Peters is then summed up in verse 9: II Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: Thus both the "angels" and Sodom and Gomorrah are reserved in exactly the same way. His argument is that God is consistent in His judgment of the ungodly and His preservation and reward of the righteous, but he is clearly talking about judgments upon men, not spirit angels. So why claim that these people were kept in "chains of darkness"? Well chains or bonds are used in the Bible as symbols of death: (NAB) Psalm 18:6 The cords of Sheol tightened; the snares of death lay in wait (NAB) Psalm 116:3 I was caught by the cords of death; the snares of Sheol had seized me Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (Mat 10:15), these people were punished with death until their final judgment before Christ. So what or where is Tartarus? Well, rather than refer you to Greek mythology, I will refer you back to the version of the Old Testament that Peter was using – the LXX Septuagint. Speaking of the Leviathon: Job 41:31 ... he regards the sea as a pot of ointment, 32 and the lowest part of the deep [Tartarus] as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range. The word Tartarus literally means "the lowest depths" and is used in the Septuagint to refer to the lowest depths of the sea. Thus it is an excellent word to use when Peter refers to the people killed by the flood. They were cast into Tartarus, the lowest depths of the sea, and killed. They remain to this day in chains of darkness (death), but they will stand before the judgment seat at the last day, just like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and just like us. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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2 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | Searcher56 | 171591 | ||
Dr. B., Here is another question for you. Are you saying that aggelos (angels) are the humans ... the "sons of God" from Genesis 6:2? It appears I do not understand your view on the Greek. Your view on the context is strange, I see the angels happening at a time before the flood, as the flood happened before Lot's rescue. Searcher |
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3 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171620 | ||
Dear Searcher, Was John the Baptist an angel? Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [AGGELOS] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Were John the Baptists disciples angels? Luke 7:24 And when the messengers [AGGELOS] of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? Where the spies sent to Jericho angels? James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers [AGGELOS], and had sent them out another way? The word Aggelos means - a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God. As you can see, it certainly does not always refer to the angels of heaven, and there is no reason to automatically believe that the angels of 2 Peter 2 were angels of heaven, especially in the context – which is of wicked humans who had abandoned their positions as sons of God, and were killed by the flood. This also comes back to a point I have made before on the angels: Luke 20:36 "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels." Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death" I hope you see the point. If the wages of sin is death, and angels cannot die, then neither can they sin, or they would die, which they cannot do. At least, not according to Jesus. Therefore the angels of 2 Peter 2 are definitely not spirit angels because they cannot sin. Likewise the sons of God in Genesis 6:2 were not angels because they sinned. Look even for a moment at the context in Genesis to see who the sons of God were. First Genesis 4:26, which chronologically immediately precedes Genesis 6: Gen 4:26 ... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Dr. Boothroyd and others translate the passage, "Then began men to be called by the name of Jehovah." How would they do this? They would obviously not all be called "Jehovah". So the descendants of Seth separated themselves from the descendants of Cain by calling themselves the sons of God. Gen 6:2 ... the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, The Lord did not say "My spirit shall not always strive with angels" but with men. God did not repent "that he had made angels on the earth", but that he had made man. This is because the descendants of Seth had become as wicked as the descendants of Cain, and only Noah and his family found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The sons of God were men, and it was those men, not angels, who caused God to bring the flood. Okay, Dr. B. |
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4 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | Searcher56 | 171629 | ||
aggelos are His messengers, human and heavenly ... you still haven't proved that aggelos in Peter are the men in Gen. | ||||||
5 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171632 | ||
Dear Searcher, I have proved from Peter that the aggelos in Peter were people who sinned at the time of the flood and were killed. I went on to prove from Genesis that these people were men. Case proved. Dr. B. |
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6 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | Searcher56 | 171639 | ||
Scripture ... 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment" ... You are sooooo funny, Dr. B. ... you changed the words. Your case has not been proven. 2 Peter 2:4 doesn't say "killed" ... but "cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment". If these were those in Genesis 6:2, why did God pick on this group? What happened to others, … and did not spare the ancient world (2 Pet 2:5) … and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes (2 Pet 2:6) Plus, if those in Genesis 6:2, how did they have relations? Also, read Jude 1:6 about the angels and judgment. Now the case is closed Searcher |
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7 | Dr. B. What does aggelos mean? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171644 | ||
Dear Searcher, I can only assume you have not read a word I have written. I have not changed any words - I directed you to the original Greek word "Tartarus" to explain what was being referred to by "hell". I directed you to the examples in the Psalms to explain what the "chains of darkness" are. And I proved from Peter that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are "reserved for judgment" in precisely the same way as these aggelos are. The similarity in their state is obvious because they are all dead humans. Please do not accuse me of changing words when I have not done that. In answer to what happened to the others, have you read 2 Peter 2 or Genesis 6? The aggelos of Peter were not spared and neither was "the old world". Everyone died apart from Noah and his family. Jude 1:6 and 7 are direct references to Peters letter, so there is no reason to cover the same issue twice. I don't understand this sentence - "Plus, if those in Genesis 6:2, how did they have relations?" You are very good at asking questions but not very good at answering them. So here's a few to start with (some of which you have already blatantly ignored): Please explain how angels can sin, when Christ told us that they can't. Please explain how the 50 men looking for Elijah thought they'd find him when Elisha had already told them that Elijah was in Heaven and, according to you, they had most probably watched Elijah go there. Please explain why you have invented a belief that they were after Elijahs spirit, when 2 Kings 2 actually tells us that they "afar off" and on the other side of the river Jordan during the conversation about double portions of spirit, and also tells us the exact reason they went to look for Elijah – that they were concerned about Elijahs safety and went to make sure he was okay? They urged Elisha until he was "shamed", not until he got angry with them for wanting Elijahs spirit! It is clear they cared about Elijah. Your claim they wanted double portions of Elijahs spirit is invented un-Biblical nonsense. In your own words, "Where is your Biblical support?" Please prove that the heaven we are referred to in 2 Kings 2 is the Heaven where God abides and not the heaven of the sky. Please prove your convolution that Elijahs letter was a prophecy and not simply a letter written at the time. Please explain why when Jesus said, "No man hath ascended up to heaven," he was actually lying. I look forward to your answers. In future, please read what I have written before you write your answers. It will help prevent you from making false accusations. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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8 | Dr. B. Biblical support Angels can't sin | Eph 4:9 | Searcher56 | 171647 | ||
Dr. B. You say "Please explain how angels can sin, when Christ told us that they can't." Where does Christ say angels can't sin? | ||||||
9 | Dr. B. Biblical support Angels can't sin | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171652 | ||
Dear Searcher, If you were reading my answers to you, you would have already read this: ---------------------------------- "This also comes back to a point I have made before on the angels: Luke 20:36 "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels." Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death" I hope you see the point. If the wages of sin is death, and angels cannot die, then neither can they sin, or they would die, which they cannot do. At least, not according to Jesus. ---------------------------------- Yrs, Dr. B. |
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10 | Dr. B. Biblical support Angels can't sin | Eph 4:9 | Searcher56 | 171673 | ||
Scripture ... Luke 20:34 The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; Luke 20:36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:37 "But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burn-ing bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." ... Dr. B. The passage starts in Luke 20:28 when Jesus was asked whose wife that was married to seven brothers was. Jesus responded we will be equal to angels in that we will not be married, procre-ate or die. The reason we will not die ANYMORE (we died once) is because we “are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.” … Now are the angels ever called either of these? You use eisegesis by forcing the Bible to say what you want it to say. |
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