Results 1 - 5 of 5
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | why is baptism important | 2 Cor 5:17 | Makarios | 22641 | ||
Greetings Tim Sheasby! Perhaps we will just have to disagree on the usage of the Greek word 'eis', since our fellow brother, Tim Moran, has given his explanantion of the usage of this Greek word by providing other very clear examples in Scripture where this Greek word is used, and these examples all support my explanation, my friend! However, we could consult my Greek professor, or anyone knowledgeable in Greek for that matter.. :) Tim, you have shown us in Scripture where you interpret that baptism is an essential element of salvation, but I believe that I have provided equally "ample" responses to each one of your claims! However, you have mentioned the verse James 2:24.. Martin Luther said it best: James 2 is not teaching that a person is saved by works. Rather a person is "justified" (declared righteous before God) by faith alone, but 'not by a faith that is alone.' In other words, genuine faith will always 'result' in good works in the saved person's life. James is writing to Jewish Christians ("to the twelve tribes"- James 1:1) who were in danger of giving nothing but lip service to Jesus. His intent, therefore, is to distinguish true faith from false faith. He shows that true faith results in works, which become visible evidences of faith's invisible presence. In other words, good works are the "vital signs" indicating that faith is alive. Apparently some of these Jewish Christians had made a false claim of faith. It is the 'boasting' of faith that James condemned. Merely claiming to have faith is not enough. Genuine faith is evidenced by works. Workless faith is worthless faith- it is dead! Great claims may be made about a corpse that is supposed to have come to life, but if it does not move (if there are no vital signs, no heartbeat, no perceptible pulse) then it is still dead. The false claims are silenced by the evidence. The fact is, apart from the spirit, the body is dead; it's a lifeless corpse. By analogy, apart from the evidence of good works, faith is dead. It is lifeless and nonproductive. That is what James is teaching in this passage. So if we have this genuine saving faith, then we too will be saved by His grace (Eph. 2:8). I fail to see what James 2:24 has anything at all to do with Baptism. As for Salvation and the "requirements" thereof, I would direct you to the following verses, my friend: Matt. 18:3; Luke 19:10; John 3:14-17, 5:24, 6:44-47; Acts 4:12; Romans 5:1-2, 11:6; 1 Cor. 1:21; Eph. 2:1-9; and Col. 1:19-20. These are just a few verses in Scripture that help describe Salvation, and not a SINGLE ONE of them mentions anything about "water baptism"! :) Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||
2 | why is baptism important | 2 Cor 5:17 | Tim Sheasby | 23317 | ||
Dear Nolan. I know I said I was going to lay this to rest but some of your comments made me look at a few things this weekend. (Actually had a lot more I would have like to have done but on Saturday morning the wife of our Sunday morning preacher phoned to tell me that her husband was terribly ill with bronchitis and would not be able to preach Sunday Morning and his son baled out at the last minute on the Sunday evening sermon at the house church we assist on Sunday evenings. I found myself in a situation where I needed to dedicate some time to lesson preparation instead of personal research. On top of that my wife came down with the same condition so I was cooking, cleaning and changing nappies as well. Quite a hectic weekend!) Looked at 2 different grammars to investigate the usage of 'eis' in the new testament. Moulton stated that Acts 2:38 could either be translated "because of" or "with a view to" DEPENDING ON YOUR DOCTRINAL BIAS. (Paraphrase). Dana and Mantey (well known baptist gramarians) state that 'eis' is used over 1700 times in the New Testament. Yet they could only quote 2 possible places where this should be translated "because of" -- Acts 2:38 being one of these (sorry, cant remember the other right now). In the writing of Luke (Luke and Acts) this usage only occurs once. This puts serious doubt on the usage to me and looks like a case of a grammatical rule being created to support a pre-decided doctrine. Unconvincing to say the least. As I have mentioned before (I think), there are two aspects to Salvation. The important part is God's part. When explaining God's part it is not always necessary to mention Mans's part (Belief/repentance, baptism). For example I have no problem with Acts 4:12 which explains that salvation is in no one else but Christ. That is not talking about belief or faith either! I started writing something on Friday and don't recall whether I ever completed and submitted it -- Friday started getting crazy. The gist of what I wanted to say is that just like Abraham had to sacrifice Isaac, to prove his faith, so in a sense is baptism a proof of our faith. Popular doctrine says baptism is a symbol of salvation already received. I think it is more a symbol of a person's faith (as per your own comments on James 2). I believe baptism and belief are essentially tied together. In the same context as Romans 5:1-2 we are told in verses 6, 8 and 10 what this is about. Christ's part in salvation was done BEFORE we were saved. Romans 6 gives a very detailed account of the process -- Baptized into Christ equals Baptized into his death v3. Baptism equals burrial v4. New life comes AFTER death and burrial therefore AFTER baptism. I am trying to not over-strees the importance of baptism but IT IS ESSENTIAL. It is something that we have to do when we believe. We are doing a course on personal evangelism for some of our newer members at the moment. The brother who is conducting the course commented that he has almost never converted "Bible Schollars". Can we be deceived by preconceptions and doctrines we have grown up with. I believe so and of course am in the same boat. My belief structures are also influenced by my own background, experience and training. But I do try to keep an open mind. If you are right and I am wrong, I pray God will forgive me and help me see the light. I pray He will help me to keep a 'love of the truth'. I pray the same for you and all others on this forum. I think I'm right, and you think you are. We can't both be right, but we could both be wrong. The only chance we have is to seek earnestly for the truth. In Christian Love My prayers are with you Tim |
||||||
3 | why is baptism important | 2 Cor 5:17 | Makarios | 23340 | ||
Greetings Tim! Sorry to hear about the inconveniences of your weekend! I pray that your wife and your pastor get well. I appreciate your research, and I find it interesting as well, although I disagree with your conclusions. I find it very inconclusive since any one of these 'sources' could have been focusing on any one of the 1,700 instances of "eis" in the New Testament and not on the example of Acts 2:38. Acts 4:12 has absolutely nothing to do with baptism. Baptism by the Holy Spirit, being "born again" (John 3), is essential. However, water baptism, in and of itself, is not essential for salvation. And I believe that this baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at salvation. In my opinion, you are confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit (that occurs at salvation) with water baptism. Isn't it interesting that we can pick the time, date, and place where we can be baptized by water? Isn't it also interesting that we can choose the water or even the method of how we are baptized (immersion, sprinkling, pouring)? Does Christ give us all of these choices when we are brought to our knees, broken before Him, and accept Him in salvation? No, He doesn't. Salvation occurs when and where the Holy Spirit decides, not us. And this salvation changes us, washes us, baptizes us- changing (or circumcising) our hearts forever! And, at that moment, we are recklessly abandoned to nothing but Jesus Christ... Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
||||||
4 | why is baptism important | 2 Cor 5:17 | Tim Sheasby | 23464 | ||
I argue no more. I am not conceding the point but one last thing -- Baptism is never by sprinkling or pouring, it is by immersion only. You don't bury a body by throwing a few grains of sand on the head -- you completely cover it. Baptism means immersion. The Greek Orthodox Church have always practiced baptism by immersion because they understand the force of the Greek word 'baptizo'. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring can be shown historically to have originated only about 400AD. Sorry, still disagree with your conclusions but I suppose that's life. In Christ Tim |
||||||
5 | why is baptism important | 2 Cor 5:17 | Makarios | 23477 | ||
Greetings Tim! Thank you for the discussion. Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
||||||