Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Reformer Joe | 13752 | ||
Nolan: Actually, I hold that Romans 9:15-24 makes an ironclad case for unconditional election (rather than just examining (9:10-15 in isolation), since the "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy" CANNOT be talking about favored and unfavored nations. Paul undeniably states that the vessels of mercy are those from the Jews and the Gentiles who have been prpared for glory. Unless there is a third type of vessel that Paul forgot to mention, those vessels of destruction also must be from the Jews AND the Gentiles (i.e. those who do not fall in the category of 9:24). This is what Tim does not address in his repetition of the "vessels of mercy" interpretation. No offense, but he seems eager to emphasize the "mercy" group and gloss over the "wrath" group almost completely. One has to do some serious mental gymnastics (far more so than occasionally qualifying the word "all" in its biblical context) to come up with a conclusion other than the one Paul is directly stating. --Joe! |
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2 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Makarios | 13799 | ||
Joe: What conclusion is Paul coming to here? Is he stating that we have no choice in the issue of whether or not we are saved? I agree with you that God's choice is not controlled in any way by man. That is definitely made clear! But I also believe that the basis of Israel's rejection is her unbelief, not God's choice. Joe, this takes us all the way back to "square one" again.. You have won a victory though! After reading your responses to Romans 9:10-15, I can now see clearly just where you are coming from in the "Reformed perspective". I could actually find this view as 'attactive' since it directly coincides with my view on eternal security. (My view is- if you are saved, then you are eternally secure. If you become an apostate, then you were never really saved to begin with.) However, my "root" differences regarding the Reformed perspective are: 1) the Blood of Christ. 2) The "invitation" that God gives to the entire human race. 3) A loving God predestining a person to hell. I'm sorry Joe, but I have gotten off the subject here again! It is beyond my comprehension or understanding to explain away the sovereignty of God from my point of view.. The only thing that I see as "ironclad" here is: I have been saved by Jesus Christ by asking Him into my heart and being my Savior forever! --Nolan |
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3 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Reformer Joe | 13838 | ||
Nolan: Wow...you do realize your view of eternal security is contrary to Wesley, don't you? He held that a person could be truly saved and then lose it. And I do consider you my brother (and therefore one of the elect)! :) --Joe! |
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4 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Makarios | 13852 | ||
Blessings Joe, I do not agree with Wesley here: that a person could be truly saved and then somehow lose their salvation. This view must be taken from Hebrews 6:6, since I cannot find any other Scriptural support for it. However, the view that a person cannot "lose" their salvation finds support in 1 Cor. 12:13, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30, John 10:28-30, Isaiah 14:24, Hebrews 7:25, and Romans 8:29-39.. If I look at my own "person" and my own life experience, then I fail to see how it is possible for a Christian (for me anyway) to somehow "lose" our salvation! If we have truly been baptized by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation (thus being "born again"), then how can we possibly go back on that? This "conclusion" defies all my understanding of Scripture! I simply see it this way: You either are or you aren't. :) Either you are saved or you are not saved. I only see it as "black" or "white". Those who are truly saved cannot somehow "lose" their salvation! I'll have to do some research and see how Wesley defended his conclusions. Thank you my brother and fellow elect! :) --Nolan |
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