Results 1 - 2 of 2
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Reformer Joe | 13837 | ||
Tim: One thing that we have to remember regarding God is that He operates from a perspective outside of time. Jeremiah 18:10 is a very good description from a human perspective how Israel's sin results in judgment. However, if we suggest that God truly changes His mind based on "changes in circumstances," we become Open Theists, saying that God does not know what man will do and will base His plan on what his creation does or doesn't do. Surely you do not think that God really has Plans A, B, C, etc. for the human race. If we are to take Jeremiah 18 as "God will wait and see what we will do," how do you reconcile that with 2 Kings where God has had enough during the reign of Manasseh, and decalres that Israel will be taken into captivity? His grandson Josiah implemented the greatest reforms in the history of Judah, but the biblical text specifically shows that God does not relent and decide not to judge Israel after all. I put to you three questions: 1. Did God know whether Israel whether Israel would repent? 2. If so, when did He know it? 3. What would be the point of Him telling Israel that he would relent if they repented and reject them if they did not? In other words, since he knew that Israel would not repent, why does he give an "if...then" to them? I would assume that you would conlude, as I do, that God was announcing His holy standard, so that they would be without excuse. However, to suggest that God was prepared to re-write his sovereign plan if they would do something would imply that he was not sure how things would turn out for Israel. If Paul writing that the vessels of wrath are "prepared for destruction" does NOT mean that they indeed will be destroyed, as you claim, what does it mean? And one final question comes to mind. How do you fit your Arminian interpretation of Romans 9 with verses 19 and 20? If we are simply asking, "Who is Israel?", why would the hypothetical challenger ask "Who resists his will?" That question one an individual would ask in reference to himself, not an ethnic people. The vessels of mercy are indeed "spiritual Israel." Hoever, notice that the word "vessels" is plural, indicating that a vessel is indeed an individual unit of spitirual Israel. In other words, individual people. The vessels of destruction are not being destroyed NOW, for a very specific purpose. Romans 1 and 2 shows that God is restraining his wrath now. However, there is the "wrath to come," when all those vessels prepared for destruction will indeed be destroyed. ALL of them. --Joe! |
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2 | Jacob and Esau | Rom 9:10 | Morant61 | 13839 | ||
Greetings Joe! Sure! Now "all" means "all." :-) I agree with you again that Open Theism is not an option. But, I also view the choices that nations and individuals must make in response to God as real choices. So, in answer to your questions. 1) Yes He knew if they would repent or not! 2) He knew it timelessly. 3) Because they had to make the choice. God's timeless knowledge of an event does not determine said event. So, He gives Israel, and other nations, a choice. They have to decide what they are going to do. Concerning the vessels of wrath and 9:19-20, allow me to address these in my post on that section tomorrow. I don't want to have type everything twice. Concerning the plural, I would agree that the vessels also have reference to individuals, in the sense the nations are made up of invidiuals. My point though is that Rom. 9 isn't primarily concerned with individuals. There is some cross over though. For instance, as an individual we can become a part of the Spiritual Israel by accepting Christ. Hopefully, my post on this section of Romans tomorrow will address some of your points. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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