Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | DocTrinsograce | 128942 | ||
Young lady, please do not put words into my mouth... er... posts. "Barge in and thrust Himself?" Not only have you failed to properly represent my position, you used words specifically chosen to appeal to emotion. Furthermore, you didn't deal with the verses I gave in support. The Lord has given us minds and His Spirit to help us rightly divide His word. I never have, never will, and never could say that God forces Himself on anyone. God holds man responsible for his choices. I am sure you would agree with that, but you'll be puzzling over why I would agree with that. I will try to explain. Please refer to the account of God's wrath in Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? We agree that the people in this passage are not believers. Notice that there is not one word of regret or repentance as they face God's judgment. In fact, if you look anywhere else in scripture for places where the lost are confronted with Divine retribution, there is only sorrow at what they are suffering. Even at the most dire time in their existence, they do not call out for forgiveness! (See Luke 16:24, 13:26; Mat 7:22, 22:12, 25:25, 44; Rev 16:9, 18:10, 19; etc.) Why do the lost refuse to submit the Lord ? It stems from the fact that they have no desire to do so. Every man makes choices based on what he deems to be good for himself at any time. The will is the mind making choices. The mind combines knowledge, emotion, experience, and inclination as it generates choices. However, no one ever chooses anything that they deem is bad for them. As Christ pointed out, our first and deepest love is for ourselves. We make choices in the direction of what we see as "good," and away from choices we see as "bad." Note that I do not mean to use the words good and bad in their moral sense, but from our own minds alone. So, no one can force you to do something you don't want to do. You will say to me, "What about at the point of a gun?" I still say the same thing: No one can force you to do something you don't want to do. In the case of the gun-pointing example, your choice to comply with the directions of the person wielding the weapon is influenced by your desire to stay alive and avoid pain. Now, a crazy person might jump out into traffic, etc. But even in that case, they are choosing what they deem to be best at the moment. Now someone will bring up suicide. Suicide is, in my estimation, the supreme act of self love. It always comes out of feelings that a person is in intolerable circumstances that, in their estimation, they do not deserve. Most people think that a suicide victim hates themselves. But think about it. I say, "My wife has left me, my car broke down, my dog ran away, I'm going to shoot myself." What I'd be saying is that I love myself too much to tolerate this situation. You see, if I hated myself, I'd say, "My wife has left me, my car broke down, my dog ran away, I can't wait for the next bad thing to happen!" Okay, so how does all this relate to the offer of salvation? In the Fall, we lost the ability to choose what was good from God's point of view. Adam and Eve imputed evil or deceit to God's heart. They chose to take matters in their own hands, believing the superiority of their own choices over God's. From then on they made their own laws instead of finding happiness in keeping God's law. The record shows that this tendency persists with us through this very day. Left to our own devices, we will not choose God's way, but our own way. We are spiritually dead. Therefore, God must restore that ability -- that spiritual deadness -- to enable a person to choose the things of God. This is why that discussion on the "ordo solutis" was so important. Only when God supernaturally intervenes through the act of regeneration are we able to respond to Him in obedience. The unregenerate man lacks the ability. The regenerate man has that ability and will always choose the only sane thing, which is to obey God in obedience to the gospel. This is the doctrine of election you see all over the scriptures. God chooses His own and makes their calling effectual through regeneration. There is nothing of "barging in" or "thrusting Himself" in any of this. Consequently, God's holiness remains intact, His awesome mercy is demonstrated, and His justice is satisfied. In a subsequent post to this one I will properly exegete our Lord's message to the Laodicean saints. |
||||||
2 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | Country Girl | 128962 | ||
I sincerely apologize as I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. The main point of my quoting from that particular passage was also to point out that with God, we can't take the middle ground or staddle the fence on the major issues in the Bible. Our Lord and Savior expects us as His children to study ALL of His Words on a particular topic and draw the proper conclusion considering His intent behind all of it. We also must include the words of His official representatives, the writers throughout the NT. I really thought you were coming down on the Pro side of this Eternal Security issue. As I've stated several times, our salvation individually is an incredibly fragile thing, something we have to work at with much diligence. God of course never waivers or moves in this process as He is the most constant Being in the whole universe. We humans on the other hand are very fickle and moody. We'll say we love our life long spouse at one point and seconds later we'll confess we love our favorite ice cream. At any rate, God certainly does want a life-long relationship with all of us but I believe He also gives all of us complete and total freedom to choose a life with Him or without Him. He also gives complete freedom to change our minds afterwards, just as He did with Sodom, Gomorrah and Ninevah before destroying them. Notice Ninevah repented and changed their ways for a little while at the preaching of Jonah. But according to Nahum, they soon went back to their evil ways and God did such a complete destruction of their whole country, that we didn't even know they existed outside of the Bible until a 100 years ago. Again, I apologize to you. Remember "to err is human, forgive is divine." Blessings to you. Country Girl |
||||||
3 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | Hank | 128989 | ||
Country Girl, the attitude reflected in your posts is generally of such sweetness and winsomness that I can't bear the thought of lowering the boom on you :-) -- something I'm perfectly capable of doing -- and so I won't! But, dear Country Girl, there is a segment of your post that has me puzzled, if not spinning around dazed. The portion is, "Our salvation individually is an incredibly fragile thing, something we have to work at with much diligence." How so? Now, I could produce a post with scriptural proof that salvation is neither fragile nor something at which we have to work, with or without diligence, or at which we are empowered to work at all, no matter how diligently we try or how fervently we desire to do so. But instead, please allow me to throw the ball back in your court and ask you please to garnish it with Scripture which clearly corroborates your assertions regarding 1) the fragility of salvation, and 2) the ability of man to aid, abet, or in any manner effect his salvation by working diligently at it. .... Or, in the event that you no longer feel comfortable with your stated position and opt to change it, you are quite at liberty and are invited to do so, and it would be instructive if you then stated biblical reasons for the change! Take as much time as you wish. Deo volente, I'll be around all summer :-) Every good and warm wish to you, Country Girl. --Hank | ||||||
4 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | Country Girl | 128995 | ||
I'd like to think I could recall several examples but at the moment with my being so tired, I can only recall the one cited below. In Acts 8, we see Simon the sorcerer become a christian and of course this is after he has repented and apparently is trying to turn his life around but he blunders very badly by lusting after the miraculous powers as displayed by Peter. Peter of course rebukes him rather harshly but I guess that's just my weaker side coming out of me. But the conclusion is that all of us start out as "babes in Christ" upon first being converted to God's family. And like all babes, our condition is fragile, that is our faith is young and immature. We're prone to make mistakes in judgments, where to go and with whom to associate. Paul teaches that the stronger, more mature brethren should watch out for the younger christian amongst them so as to not lead them astray. For example, we all know about Paul's admonition not to eat meat that had been offered to idols in front of a newly converted christian that's just come out of that practice, that is offering meat sacrifices to idols. So you see, it's a matter of drawing the proper conclusion from God's Word and using our common sense. But thank you for taking a new and objective look at my post. It does give me "pause for the cause." Blessings to you, my dear friend. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to come knocking. Country Girl |
||||||