Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | Sonlit | 163551 | ||
Please bear with me, as I am brand new to this forum and am not quite sure of even how to check if my question has already been asked. I am an 'older Christian' and have been raised and taught in the same church for 40 years. Our doctrinal statement has been the same this entire time. We have been blessed with a new pastor. He is a graduate from the Master's Seminary and I am being made aware of Biblical questions I have never thought to ask and my soul is searching for answers. I don't want to debate...I only want to learn. With this said, I came across a verse from John 17:9 that reads "My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you." This is Jesus talking to His Father. Did Jesus know at that time who was His Father's and who wasn't? If Jesus didn't pray for the 'world', should we? Or should our prayer be for the elect only? Is it futile to be praying for someone to be saved when 'before the foundations of the world' they were already known. I use to hold on to that verse "God is not willing that any should perish" like a bulldog on a bone. But I am now being taught that that verse is really saying "God is not willing that any of HIS CHOSEN should perish" I can't tell you how this has changed my prayer life, my view of my heavenly father. It really has shaken my foundation. I will be grateful for any and all responses. | ||||||
2 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | atdcross | 163644 | ||
Regrading Jn 17:9. First question: "Did Jesus know at that time who was His Father's and who wasn't?" Response: There is no indication at all that this is an issue contemplated in the verse. Second question: "If Jesus didn't pray for the 'world', should we? Or should our prayer be for the elect only?" Response: Tim Moran has provided an adequate answer to this question in his post ID#163556. Third question: "Is it futile to be praying for someone to be saved when 'before the foundations of the world' they were already known." Response: It seems you left more out in the question. Do you mean it is futile to pray because they were already known by God to be damned? On the assumption that this is what you meant, whether God foreknows one's eternal destiny is not the issue nor is any indication given in this verse one way or the other. Again, I refer you to Tim's post cited above regarding whether ot not we ought to pray for the "world". Unfortunately, what you are being taught, that 2 Peter 3:9 refers to "His Chosen," seems to be a total distortion of its clear and intended meaning. 1. If one wants to argue that the context - "is patient toward you" - demands that "the chosen" are understood, then it must be understood that Peter is writing to those who are not saved at the time his letter is being read (or else why does God need to be patient with them and why does will that they not perish if they are already saved?). 2. To change the meaning or interpret "any" to refer to "the chosen" is totally unwarranted in the text and, although I am not a Greek scholar, my references give no indication this is the case. The "any" includes the "God-mockers" of v.3; God desires their repentance also and that is why he delays his return. Respecting your desire not to debate the issue (nor do i want to argue it or attempt to prove anything), I only add my understanding of the Bible for further thought. |
||||||
3 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | DocTrinsograce | 163658 | ||
Dear Atdcross, Your exegesis of 2 Peter 3:9 is quite confusing. This epistle was written by the apostle Peter to a group of believers (see 2 Peter 1:1). How could his continual use of the first person plural pronouns include anyone other than the writer and the recipients? Considering the reason the epistle was written, how could an affirmation of God's desire that not any should perish be any kind of encouragement if it meant some other bunch? There's an old adage that states, "When the plain sense of a passage makes perfect sense don't seek any other sense." "But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth His hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to Himself, whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world." --John Calvin on 2 Peter 3:9 "'...not willing that any should perish;' [is intended to mean] not any of the us, whom He has loved with an everlasting love, whom He has chosen in His Son, and given to Him, and for whom He has died, and who are brought to believe in Him." --John Gill (on 2 Peter 3:9) "The simplest (simplistic some would say) solution is to see these verses as applying only to the elect. This makes eminent sense and complies with the analogy of the Bible." --John Hendryx (on 2 Peter 3:9) "God is long-suffering towards the elect prior to their conversion." --Wilhelmus a Brekel, when discussing 2 Peter 3:9 "The true and satisfying reason of the delay of the second coming of Christ is the Lord’s long suffering toward His own elect" --Alexander Nesbit (on 2 Peter 3:9) John Owen, Thomas Peck, A. W. Pink, James H. Thornwell, Francis Turretin, are among the others saying very much the same thing regarding this verse. You posit a week argument and -- clearly -- an unpopular one among the learned of the church. I'm not certain what makes this verse have such appeal to the universalist and his ilk. In Him, Doc |
||||||
4 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | Morant61 | 163665 | ||
Greetings Doc! You wrote to Atdcross: "You posit a week argument and -- clearly -- an unpopular one among the learned of the church." Is it unpopular among the learned or only those of a differing opinion? ;-) Is there no one 'learned' who holds to a differing view? It would have been quite simple for God to write 'any of you' in the text, instead of 'any'. This would have cleared up the problem quite conclusively. But, the text does not qualify or limit the 'any' in any sense. The fact that 'God is patient with you' does not limit the second clause in the least. "God is patient with you because He doesn't want ANY to perish" makes perfect sense grammatically. I can understand that some don't agree with this view, but that does not make it unlearned or confused. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
5 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | DocTrinsograce | 163667 | ||
Hmmm... So the pronouns don't really mean the pronouns that are written? I wonder what pronouns God would have written if He had REALLY meant to say what He had intended? It makes the verse sort of sound like a Geico commercial! I think I'll just stick with the plain sense. ;-) (Ummm... no, I wouldn't call that confusing or unlearned... Other adjectives certainly do come to mind.) |
||||||
6 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | Morant61 | 163669 | ||
Greetings Doc! Somehow you have missed my point my friend. I am arguing that the pronouns really do mean what they actually say, not what someone wants to add to them. 'Any' really means 'any' and 'Everyone' really means 'everyone'. :-) Speaking of plain sense, how about 1 Tim. 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." Does 'all men' here mean 'all men' or does it mean 'some men'? How about 1 John 2:2? Does 'whole world' mean 'whole world' or does it mean 'some of the world'? I know what the 'plain sense' will be for you given your perspective, but please don't imply that those who differ with your perspective are unlearned (especially when they are sticking to the plain sense)! :-) p.s. - By the way, I have some really good news...! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | DocTrinsograce | 163843 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, We can discuss the other verses in due course. Let's stay with the one thought in Peter's epistles to avoid drifting into some other context. So, by your rendering, God's patience is toward believers, but His wish is toward everyone including the unrighteous. The believers, making their calling and election sure (1:10), are rescued by the Lord from trials (2:9a), to whom He shows His patience. But His wish is that the unrighteous -- kept by God "under punishment until the day of judgment" (2:9b) -- would not perish. Doesn't that make God to suffer a bit of ambivalence? This verse is probably the most popular one used to argue against election. Given your perspective, it is easy to understand why you'd want to read it in that way. Let's zoom out a bit, though, and see if we might arrive at a bit more of a commonsensical rendering. One that doesn't compromise the true nature of God, or force Peter into some kind of contradiction. First, let me point out that the verse -- in context -- is not really soteriological. Read from the first verse in the chapter. Peter is talking about why Christ has delayed His return. Christ is coming, he declares, and will come. His coming will be like a thief in the night (v 10). Second, as I've tried to point out, is the consideration of the audience. Peter speaks of the mockers as "they," but everywhere else he speaks of his audience as "you," "us," or "beloved." Now that's important because the assumption is made that the "you," "any," and "all" refer to everyone on planet earth! But as Brother Tim asks, "Doesn't 'all' mean 'all?'" I'd answer, "Well, yes, it usually does, but not always." It must be determined by the context in which the word appears. When I was a schoolboy the teacher, at the beginning of class, would ask, "Are we all here?" He wasn't asking if every person on the planet were present in the room. :-) Instead, he was asking if all the students enrolled in the class were present. Context! Similarly, Luke 2:1 speaks of Caesar's decree to tax "all the world." He wasn't going to tax every person on the planet. Instead, he was going to tax every person under the authority of Rome. Paul speaks of the gospel having (past tense) reached "all the world." He wasn't saying that the gospel was preached to every person on the planet. Instead, he meant everyone within the contiguously Roman occupied lands. Context! So, the question is this: Does the "all" in 2 Peter 3:9 refer to all men without distinction or everyone in a specific group. To answer, let's look at the context to see if Peter is writing to all mankind or to a specific group. Peter identifies his audience in 2 Peter 1:1b, "to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours." Furthermore, he says that this is his "second letter" (2 Peter 3:1) to these people. Indeed, we have both of his letters! Consequently, we can even be more clear about who his recipients because the first epistle starts out, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who are elect..." (1 Peter 1:1a). "This is now the second letter that I am writing to YOU, BELOVED. In both of them I am stirring up YOUR sincere mind by way of reminder, that YOU should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through YOUR apostles, knowing this first of all, that SCOFFERS will come in the last days with scoffing... But do not overlook this one fact, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:1-9, my emphasis) Besides, if the words "all" and "any" were referring to all humanity in history, then the verse would prove far more than you wish, Brother Tim: it would prove universalism. If God is never willing that any should perish, then none would perish! Consequently, "any" can only mean the group being addressed. The second coming of Christ has been delayed so that all of the elect might be saved. Indeed, God is not willing that any of the elect shall perish! Now, although I've pointed out that the main thrust of this chapter is not soteriological, I'd like to draw our attention to v 15, where Peter explains that as Paul has taught, the Lord's patience means salvation! Consequently, these passages can either be about universalism or about election. No third choice has any merit. Rather than denying election, when understood in its proper Scriptural context, this verse, instead, strongly affirms it! Dear other readers, I take the time to teach in these posts as I do because I do not wish for ANY to miss the proper interpretation of Scripture in its historico-grammatical context, but that ALL should avoid the error of eisegesis. In Him, Doc |
||||||
8 | Praying for the 'World'. | Matt 5:44 | Morant61 | 163847 | ||
Greetings Doc! There is so much here, but I will try to respond in a manner that will do it justice. 1) The issue of 'you' (pl): This is a rather easy issue to deal with my friend. If I were to write to you that 'God loves you', would I necessarily mean that God loves no one else but you? Of course not! Neither does Peter limit his comments to just his readers. Were these the only believers - ever - with whom God was patient? But, even in the 'you' could be forced to refer only to those readers of Peter, it would in no way restrict the 'any' and 'everyone' to just the 'you'. God is patient with 'you' because He doesn't wish anyone to perish. 2) The charge of universalism: This verse could only be understood as a reference to universalism under the Calvinistic understanding of God's will and sovereignty. Calvin did not believe that God could will something that would not happen, yet there are plenty of examples of just this percise thing. Remember when Christ longed to gather the people of Jerusalem under His wings, but they would not. This verse makes perfect sense in my understanding of it (without resorting to changing the plain meaning of the words). God doesn't want anyone to perish. He died for the sins of the world, reconciling the world to Himself. He now offers salvation to all. If they will be reconciled, they will not perish. 3) Qualified 'alls': You are exactly right about your example of 'Are we all here'. There are times when 'all' or 'every' is limited by some other word. Some verses speak of all His disciples. This does not refer to every person. But, there is no limiting words in this verse, so the plain sense would be 'all' and 'everyone'. :-) If God had meant to limit it, He could have said 'all of you', instead of 'all'. Finally, speaking of eisgesis, where does the word 'elect' appear in this passage? :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||