Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45246 | ||
Greetings John! It never ceases to amaze me how two people can see things so differently! :-) We agree on some of your points. I too believe in human depravity. I too believe that if God just left us in our sinful condition, we would have no hope. Where we differ though is the question of whether 'spiritually dead' means 'unable to respond'. Laying aside the issue of God's drawing of the lost, the whole argument of Romans 1 rests upon 'spiritually dead' people being able to recognize (and reject) spiritual truth. Rom. 1:18-21 says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." How did these 'spiritually dead' people surpress (v. 18) the truth if they did not know it? How could it be plain (v. 19) to them? How could they clearly see (v. 20) these things and be without excuse (v. 20) if 'spiritual dead' means what Calvin taught? How could they be said to know (v. 21) God? The verses you quoted do an excellent job of showing where we stand apart from Christ - utterly depraved and sinful. But, Christ doesn't leave us in that state. He draws all men to Him. Nothing in the verses you quoted rule out the possibility of depraved people being able to accept or reject the grace of God when God Himself begins to draw them. It is an assumption of Calvin that 'spiritually dead' means unable to respond. Yet, if this is true, then Romans 1 is meaningless. The pagan man of Romans 1 stands condemned precisely because he knew God and yet choose to worship created things rather than God - thus he is without excuse. One thing is for sure, we sure see God and His word very differently! :-) Oh well, we can still be brothers in Christ! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45275 | ||
Dear Tim, Praise God with me, for we do have Him in common. You said "Where we differ though is the question of whether 'spiritually dead' means 'unable to respond'." The calvinist does not deny but rather affirms that mankind does in fact know the truth. We believe that the witness of nature and the works of creation and providence so clearly reveal God that all men will be found without excuse before God. Hold on to your hat now. We believe that fallen man has the freedom to choose! However, because man's nature is corrupt and the desires of his heart are only wicked continually, he is unable to choose to surrender to God. Not because God prevents him, but because in his fallen state he has no desire to do so. That is why Jesus said "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;". Men are damned, not because they did not know the truth, but because they suppress it. Man requires God's grace before he is able to desire salation. Faith is a spiritual attribute that is a gift of God given to those who He draws to Christ. I'll continue later. John |
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3 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45308 | ||
Greetings John! For the most part, I agree with everything you just wrote. :-) But, we are back full circle again. You believe that God only draws some and I believe that He draws 'all'. I do have quick question though my friend. Under your understanding of depravity (unable to choose God because of depravity) would man have to always choose sin over righteousness? Yet, we know that not every sinner is as sinful as he can possibly be. Some go to greater depths of sin than others. So, it seems to me (based on this) that depravity doesn't not mean that even sinners always choose sin. Just curious how you view this! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45321 | ||
Hi Tim, If one is to understand the 5 points of Calvinism he must first understand Total Depravity. Once that point is accepted as scriptural, the remaining points are more easily comprehended. You asked: would man have to always choose sin over righteousness? Yet, we know that not every sinner is as sinful as he can possibly be. Some go to greater depths of sin than others. So, it seems to me (based on this) that depravity doesn't not mean that even sinners always choose sin. Just curious how you view this! Total Depravity does not mean that man that each sinner is as totally or completely corrupt in his actions and thoughts as it is possible for him to be. Instead the adjective "total" is used to indicate thaat the whole of man's being is affected by sin.... The corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul; sin has affected all (the totality) of man's faculties-his mind, his will, etc. As a result of this inborn corruption, the natural man is unable to do any spiritual good. (The 5 Points of Calvinism) Does man have to choose sin over righteousness? Yes. But he is not forced or coerced by God to to choose sin, for that would make God the author of sin. It is true that fallen man does do ethically good works. But these works do not equate to righteousness; "for without faith it is impossible to please God". The motive for the works are not to glorify God. At best they are an attempt to establish a seperate righteousness apart from God that will put Him under an obligation to bless the worker. Does this help? John |
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5 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45325 | ||
Greetings John! Here is the dilemma though, if man is totally depraved (in the sense of being completely unable to choose between right and wrong) what prevents man from being as sinful as possible? Why aren't people as sinful as possible? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Two "wills" of God? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45331 | ||
Hi Tim, Good question. My answer is the grace of God. Just as the rain falls on the just and the unjust. But God gives his grace for his own reasons, not because any deserve it. Everything He does is for His glory; for His eternal purpose. Even the sinful acts of man are preordained. They freely choose sin for the sake of evil, but God purposes it for good. Josephs brother for instance. Pilate,Herod, the Jews and gentiles who crucified Christ (Acts 4:27,28). Gotta Run, John |
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