Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45116 | ||
Dear Tim, I'm not sure I follow your point my friend. I gave a reasoned reply - salvation is a gift which must be received. Universal atonement does not equal univsersal salvation, so Owen's point is not valid. Tim, my point is: Owens has anticipated your answer and asks "is this unbelief a sin, or is it not?". God has commanded all men to repent and come to faith in Christ. By their refusal to believe they sin against God. Owens asks: "If it be (sin) , then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? Please address Owens final question. Thanks, John |
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2 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45162 | ||
Greetings John! I'm not sure I can make this any clearer my friend. John Owen's point is only valid if universal atonement and universal salvation are the same thing!!! They are not, so his point isn't valid. All sin was paid for at the cross - past, present, and future. However, one does not receive the benefit of the Cross until one receives the gift of salvation upon repentance. This is exactly what Rom. 5:17 says, "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God?s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." So, even their unbelief was paid for at the cross. However, universal atonement is not the same as universal salvation!!! The benefits of the atonement are applied after reception of the gift of salvation, not before. Acts 2:38 - "Peter replied, ??Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." John 1:12 - "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God?" Acts 26:17 - "I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.?" 1 Tim. 1:16 - "But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life." John Owen's point is only valid if universal atonement and universal salvation are the same thing!!! They are not, so his point isn't valid. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45173 | ||
Hi Tim, You wrote: "I'm not sure I can make this any clearer my friend. John Owen's point is only valid if universal atonement and universal salvation are the same thing!!!" I do understand your point Tim, the problem is it is self-contradictory! Universal Atonement: Christ died to atone for the sins off all mankind. Universal Salvation: All mankind will be saved. I recognize that you reserve faith as the pre-requisite for anyone to recieve the benefit of the atonement. But that does not change the fact that failure to believe is sin. Easton's Bible Dictionary Atonement This word does not occur in the Authorized Version of the New Testament except in Romans 5:11, where in the Revised Version the word "reconciliation" is used. In the Old Testament it is of frequent occurrence. The meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation. Thus it is used to denote the effect which flows from the death of Christ. But the word is also used to denote that by which this reconciliation is brought about, viz., the death of Christ itself; and when so used it means satisfaction, and in this sense to make an atonement for one is to make satisfaction for his offences (Exodus 32:30; Leviticus 4:26; 5:16; Numbers 6:11), and, as regards the person, to reconcile, to propitiate God in his behalf. Owens point is valid. If Christ achieved atonement for all the sins of mankind and unbelief is a sin, then why is the unbeliever judged? Please Tim, don't blame me if universal atonement does'nt make sense. Brother John |
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4 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45180 | ||
Greetings John! I never said that universal atonement didn't make sense - you did my friend! ;-) 2 Cor. 5:18-21 uses the same word as Rom. 5:11. It makes it clear that 'atonement' or 'reconcilation' has two compents a) The objective work of Christ on the cross and b) The subjective acceptance of the work of the cross. So, am I to accept Owen's logical conclusions or the clear statements of Scripture? I'll take Scripture! 1) 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 2) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men?s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." 3) John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ??Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" 4) John 3:16 - "??For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." 5) John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." 6) John 4:42 - "They said to the woman, ??We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.?" 7) John 12:47 - "??As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." 8) Rom. 11:15 - "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" 9) 1 John 4:14 - "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." All of these verses support universal atonement, unless we start changing the very meaning of the words to suit a doctrine. Yet, one more verse which indicates the difference between universal atonement and universal salvation is Gal. 3:22: "But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Only those who believe receive the gift - and this through faith. So, Owen's point is not valid! You feel that it is, but I disagree. Now, you have kept after me with this question, so allow me to ask you one my friend. Under limited (extent) atonement, how does 2 Cor. 5:17-21 makes any sense? If Christ reconciled the elect (irresistibly), why are they then commanded to 'be reconciled'? Why does God implore them through Paul? It sounds to me like they have to make a choice! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45200 | ||
Dear Tim, You contend that each and every time John uses the term "world" it indicates every individual in the world. If that is the case, please explain: John 17:25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;" Obviously John is in this case speaking of the world in a different sense, even though he uses kosmos in this verse. It cannot mean all for that would exclude the prophets and every other believing person that had ever lived up to that point in time. Other examples from John: John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him." John 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. John 16:20 "Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy. John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 1 John 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. I must get back to other responsibilities, but I would like to explore more closely John's use of the tern "world". Later Tim, John |
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6 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | srbaegon | 45204 | ||
Hello John I don't thin the apostle is using "world" in a substantially different way. In both the gospel and epistle he is quoting/stating comparisons--between believers and everyone else. Tim might know better. Steve |
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7 | Aren't the elect commanded to repent? | Hebrews | John Reformed | 45207 | ||
Hi Steve, Thanks for the input. It is of the utmost importance to properly interpret the terms used in Scripture. Language can bea tricky business, but by God's grace, we can arrive at the truth. That is why I believe context is such a vital element in interpreting the meaning of any particular verse. If someone presents me with a verse or verses that they wish to use to support their doctrine, I try to read the preceeeding verses and those that follow. In other words, everything that pertains to the topic. Many times we need to go to our concordance to discover the literal meaning from the original Hebrew or Greek. Not being a learned person myself, I also seek the opiions of teachers whom I respect (keeping in mind their own falibility). I do believe it pleases God when we search dilligently and faithfully. Thanks Again Steve, Brother John |
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