Results 1 - 5 of 5
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 44871 | ||
Greetings John! It is good to hear from you! This still doesn't answer the questions I raised before, but I will provide a couple of possible responses. 1) I don't personally hold to the 'elect based upon God's foreknowledge of our choice' camp. But, they can make a strong case. The verb only appears 5 times in the New Testament and one can make a case that the emphasis is upon prior knowledge. There isn't any Scripture which supports defining the word as 'pre-chosen'. 2) Robert Shank makes the case in his book, "Elect in the Son" that election is primarily corporate, not individual. Thus, one can make the case that the Rom. 8 passage deals with God's purpose for the group, not primarily for individuals. 3) Finally, this verb in only used twice in Romans (8:29 and 11:2). In Rom. 11:2, the phrase is clearly a reference to physical Israel. I would make the case that it refers to the same group in Rom. 8:29. This fits the context since Rom. 9-11 deals with the whole theme of the salvation of Israel. What Rom. 8:29 does not do though is explain away all of the passages where God says 'all, world, everyone, whosoever, ect....'. Well, my alarm just went off, so I have to get ready for work. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 44949 | ||
Hi Tim, I hope you will accept my posts as from coming from my heart, even though they were written by men more learned men than myelf. I have been copying from John Pipers www.desiringGod.org. I have taken pains to choose those passages that answer your comments and questions. I Ephesians 1:3-6 is another powerful statement of the unconditionality of our election and predestination to sonship. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He predestined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace." Some interpreters argue that this election before the foundation of the world was only an election of Christ, but not an election of which individuals would actually be in Christ. This simply amounts to saying that there is no unconditional election of individuals to salvation. Christ is put forward as the chosen one of God and the salvation of individuals is dependent on their own initiative to overcome their depravity and be united to Christ by faith. God does not choose them and therefore God cannot effectually convert them. He can only wait to see who will quicken themselves from the dead and choose him. This interpretation does not square well with verse 11 where it says that "we were predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." Nor does the literal wording of verse 4 fit this interpretation. The ordinary meaning of the word for "choose" in verse 4 is to select or pick out of a group (cf. Luke 6:13; 14:7; John13:18; 15:16,19). So the natural meaning of the verse is that God chooses his people from all humanity, before the foundation of the world by viewing them in relationship to Christ their redeemer. All election is in relation to Christ. There would be no election of sinners unto salvation if Christ were not appointed to die for their sins. So in that sense they are elect in Christ. But it is they, and not just Christ who are chosen out of the world. Also the wording of verse 5 suggests the election of people to be in Christ, and not just the election of Christ. Literally it says, "Having predestined us unto sonship through Jesus Christ." We are the ones predestined, not Christ. He is the one that makes the election of sinners possible, and so our election is "through him," but there is no talk here about God having a view only to Christ in election. Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. Your Brother, John |
||||||
3 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 44964 | ||
Greetings John! I am very familiar with Mr. Piper. I even quoted him in a paper I did in college. The problem I have with his position on Eph. 1 is simply this - a lot of assumptions are made. The passage is addressed to Christians. Everyone who is in Christ is obviously elect, no matter which side of the C and A debate one is on. But, nowhere in this passage, or any other, does it say that some are not elect. This is my fundamental problem with Calvinism. We have clear positive statement upon statement that God desires to save all, that He died for the world, that whosoever will can come, but Calvinist's cannot produce one equally clear statement that God does not will to save all. Yes, there are statements which can read through the Calvinistic filter and made to sound like they say this, but there are none that simply say, "I do not desire to save all" or "I only elect some, and reject the rest". Until someone can show me such a verse, I will always believe in a God who desires to save all, not just some. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 44989 | ||
Dear Tim, I inadvertantly lost, a somewhat time consuming, post I was sending you. I have taken the liberty of emailing the webpage to you. God Bless Tim, John |
||||||
5 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45023 | ||
Greetings John! I received the e-mail! Thanks! I highly recommend using a word processor to compose longer posts on! :-) I learned this from experience myself. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||