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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 43464 | ||
Greetings John! I'm glad that we are brothers my friend. I felt like I did deal with the verse - 'all' means 'all. :-) Of course I believe, as you do, that John 12:32 indicates what manner of death Jesus is about to face. However, that still doesn't negate Jesus' statement that He would 'draw' all men to Him. My problem with Calvin's approach is simple. I can quote literally hundreds of verses which state that God desires all to be saved, died for the sins of the world, that whosoever can respond, ect.... Calvin, because of his belief that God only elects some, take all of these clear statments and redefines them. All becomes some, whole becomes part, and whosoever becomes whosoever God gives the will to come. I was always taught that any interpretation which requires mental gymnastics to explain away the plain meaning of the words used is probably wrong. In fact, I use this principle when I teach new Christians how to study the Bible. Let me give you an example which is not associated with the C and A debate. I heard a guy on the radio once who argued that Mt. 24:36 didn't really mean that 'no one knows'. He argued that 'know' here meant general knowledge. So, it would not be common knowledge when Christ returned, but some would know. Obviously, this is a case of mental gymnastics. My contention with many of Calvin's positions is that He does the same thing with the universal passages. The only way I would ever convert to Calvin's way of thinking is if someone can produce verses which plainly (not based upon one's inference) that: 1) God does not desire to save all. 2) Christ did not die for all. 3) That not everyone can respond. If someone can produce clear statements of these facts, then I could accept Calvinism. Until then my friend, this thread could go on forever. :-) So, I recommend we leave it as is. We have lain out our positions and those who read the forum can decide for themselves which position is Biblical and which is not. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 44838 | ||
Hi Tim, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose, For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And thosewhom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." Often this text is used to argue against unconditional election on the basis of verse 29 which says, "Those whom he foreknew he also predestined..." So some say that people are not chosen unconditionally. They are chosen on the basis of their faith which they produce without the help of irresistible grace and which God sees beforehand. But this will not square with the context. Notice that Romans 8:30 says, "And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." Focus for a moment on the fact that all whom God calls he also justifies. This calling in verse 30 is not given to all people. The reason we know it's not is that all those who are called are also justified -- but all men are not justified. So this calling in verse 30 is not the general call to repentance that preachers give or that God gives through the glory of nature. Everybody receives that call. The call of verse 30 is given only to those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of his son (v.29). And it is a call that leads necessarily to justification: "Those whom he called he also justified." But we know that justification is by faith (Romans 5:1). What then is this call that is given to all those who are predestined and which leads to justification? It must be the call of irresistible grace. It is the call of 1 Corinthians 1:24. Between the act of predestination and justification there is the act of calling. Since justification is only by faith the calling in view must be the act of God whereby he calls faith into being. And since it necessarily results in justification it must be irresistible. There are none called (in this sense! not the sense of Matthew 22:14) who are not justified. All the called are justified. So the calling of verse 30 is the sovereign work of God which brings a person to faith by which he is justified. Now notice the implication this has for the meaning of foreknowledge in verse 29. When Paul says in verse 29, "Those whom he foreknew he also predestined," he can't mean (as so many try to make him mean) that God knows in advance who will use their free will to come to faith, so that he can predestine them to sonship because they made that free choice on their own. It can't mean that because we have seen from verse 30 that people do not come to faith on their own. They are called irresistibly. God does not foreknow the free decisions of people to believe in him because there aren't any such free decisions to know. If anyone comes to faith in Jesus, it is because they were quickened from the dead (Ephesians 2:5) by the creative Spirit of God. That is, they are effectually called from darkness into light. So the foreknowledge of Romans 8:29 is not the mere awareness of something that will happen in the future apart from God's predetermination. Rather it is the kind of knowledge referred to in Old Testament texts like Genesis 18:19 ("I have chosen [literally:known] Abraham so that he may charge his children...to keep the way of the Lord"), and Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations") and Amos 3:2 ("You only (Israel) have I known from all the families of the earth"). As C.E.B. Cranfield says, the foreknowledge of Romans 8:29 is "that special taking knowledge of a person which is God's electing grace." Such foreknowledge is virtually the same as election: "Those whom he foreknew (i.e. chose) he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." Ran a bit long-John |
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3 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 44871 | ||
Greetings John! It is good to hear from you! This still doesn't answer the questions I raised before, but I will provide a couple of possible responses. 1) I don't personally hold to the 'elect based upon God's foreknowledge of our choice' camp. But, they can make a strong case. The verb only appears 5 times in the New Testament and one can make a case that the emphasis is upon prior knowledge. There isn't any Scripture which supports defining the word as 'pre-chosen'. 2) Robert Shank makes the case in his book, "Elect in the Son" that election is primarily corporate, not individual. Thus, one can make the case that the Rom. 8 passage deals with God's purpose for the group, not primarily for individuals. 3) Finally, this verb in only used twice in Romans (8:29 and 11:2). In Rom. 11:2, the phrase is clearly a reference to physical Israel. I would make the case that it refers to the same group in Rom. 8:29. This fits the context since Rom. 9-11 deals with the whole theme of the salvation of Israel. What Rom. 8:29 does not do though is explain away all of the passages where God says 'all, world, everyone, whosoever, ect....'. Well, my alarm just went off, so I have to get ready for work. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 44949 | ||
Hi Tim, I hope you will accept my posts as from coming from my heart, even though they were written by men more learned men than myelf. I have been copying from John Pipers www.desiringGod.org. I have taken pains to choose those passages that answer your comments and questions. I Ephesians 1:3-6 is another powerful statement of the unconditionality of our election and predestination to sonship. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He predestined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace." Some interpreters argue that this election before the foundation of the world was only an election of Christ, but not an election of which individuals would actually be in Christ. This simply amounts to saying that there is no unconditional election of individuals to salvation. Christ is put forward as the chosen one of God and the salvation of individuals is dependent on their own initiative to overcome their depravity and be united to Christ by faith. God does not choose them and therefore God cannot effectually convert them. He can only wait to see who will quicken themselves from the dead and choose him. This interpretation does not square well with verse 11 where it says that "we were predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." Nor does the literal wording of verse 4 fit this interpretation. The ordinary meaning of the word for "choose" in verse 4 is to select or pick out of a group (cf. Luke 6:13; 14:7; John13:18; 15:16,19). So the natural meaning of the verse is that God chooses his people from all humanity, before the foundation of the world by viewing them in relationship to Christ their redeemer. All election is in relation to Christ. There would be no election of sinners unto salvation if Christ were not appointed to die for their sins. So in that sense they are elect in Christ. But it is they, and not just Christ who are chosen out of the world. Also the wording of verse 5 suggests the election of people to be in Christ, and not just the election of Christ. Literally it says, "Having predestined us unto sonship through Jesus Christ." We are the ones predestined, not Christ. He is the one that makes the election of sinners possible, and so our election is "through him," but there is no talk here about God having a view only to Christ in election. Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. Your Brother, John |
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5 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 44964 | ||
Greetings John! I am very familiar with Mr. Piper. I even quoted him in a paper I did in college. The problem I have with his position on Eph. 1 is simply this - a lot of assumptions are made. The passage is addressed to Christians. Everyone who is in Christ is obviously elect, no matter which side of the C and A debate one is on. But, nowhere in this passage, or any other, does it say that some are not elect. This is my fundamental problem with Calvinism. We have clear positive statement upon statement that God desires to save all, that He died for the world, that whosoever will can come, but Calvinist's cannot produce one equally clear statement that God does not will to save all. Yes, there are statements which can read through the Calvinistic filter and made to sound like they say this, but there are none that simply say, "I do not desire to save all" or "I only elect some, and reject the rest". Until someone can show me such a verse, I will always believe in a God who desires to save all, not just some. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 44989 | ||
Dear Tim, I inadvertantly lost, a somewhat time consuming, post I was sending you. I have taken the liberty of emailing the webpage to you. God Bless Tim, John |
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7 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 45023 | ||
Greetings John! I received the e-mail! Thanks! I highly recommend using a word processor to compose longer posts on! :-) I learned this from experience myself. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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