Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 43269 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for your patient responses, but we are back to the same thing it always comes to in the C and A debate. 'All' never means 'all'. 'World' never means 'world'. But, inferences based upon Calvinism lead us to "...I think it can be reasonably deduced that His choosing of Jacob and His not dealing with any other nation proves (by default) His rejection of all other nations." Yet, there isn't a single Scripture which says this! It is an assumption. Concerning John 12:32, there simply isn't anything in the verse to justify making 'all' mean 'all kinds of people - Jewish or Gentile', other than the dictates of Calvinism. We have both lain out our cases for all to see. I guess that will have to suffice! I am thankful for your witness and friendship, and I eagerly await the day when we will actually agree in post! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 43317 | ||
Dear Tim, Please permit me one final post. You wrote "Concerning John 12:32, there simply isn't anything in the verse to justify making 'all' mean'all kinds of people'." The following is why I disagree. John 12:20 "Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast; these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip *came and *told Andrew; Andrew and Philip *came and *told Jesus. And Jesus *answered them, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." This leads us to Jesus' words in John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." I believe the context leads us to the logical conclusion that "all men" refers to Gentiles as well as Jews. If your interpretation is correct then Verse 32 would have to mean every single individual man would be drawn to the cross! Surely that is not what the Bible teaches. The apostle Paul told us that the cross was foolishness to the Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews. Your Brother, John |
||||||
3 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 43335 | ||
Greetings John! The problem is that 'all' is not an adjective. It does not require an antecedent. Even if it did, there was a larger crowd present in v. 20 and in v. 29. Jesus did not single out the Greeks in v. 23. In fact, His response in the Greek could be interpreted as a rejection of their request to come see Him since it begins with a mild adversative - 'de'. Most importantly though, there are ways that Jesus could have said 'all kinds of men' or 'Gentiles and Jews'. He didn't! His statement stands on it's own and requires no added words to make it's meaning clear. Finally, v. 32 does not say that all men will be drawn to the cross, but it says "I will draw all men to me". Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 43346 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote, "Finally, v. 32 does not say that all men will be drawn to the cross, but it says 'I will draw all men to me'." Your last remark shows a degree of recalcitrance I would not have expected of you. It is a school boy's response. I know you do not preach a crossless Christ Ot a Christless cross! What does your remark mean (except that you have no answer)? God Bless Tim, John |
||||||
5 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 43370 | ||
Greetings John! I'm sorry you took my comment that way my friend. I really didn't intend it in that way. I apparently didn't state my point very well. I was simply trying to stress that Christ draws all men to Him, but that doesn't mean that all will respond (I'm not a universalist). So, whatever people think of the cross or Christianity, Christ is drawing them. I'm sorry if my comment was taken in the wrong way! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
6 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 43389 | ||
DearBrother Tim, I could not call you my brother if I thought you believed the cross to be other than the focal point of Christianity, for we preach Christ and Him crucified. But what promted my latest post was your apparent (at least it seems to me) reluctance to deal with the text. For what reason did Jesus make the statement: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."? Some times we forget the verse immediately following: John 12:33 "But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. He did not make the statement for the purpose of informing us that every person who ever lived, or whoever will live, are drawn to Him as a result of His being lifted up for it is manifestly evident thar this does not occur. 32. If I be lifted up. Next follows the method by which the judgment shall be conducted; namely, Christ, being lifted up on the cross, shall gather all men to himself, in order that he may raise them from earth to heaven. The Evangelist says, that Christ pointed out the manner of his death; and, therefore, the meaning undoubtedly is, that the cross will be, as it were, a chariot, by which he shall raise all men, along with himself, to his Father. It might have been thought, that at that time he was carried away from the earth, so as no longer to have any interests in common with men; but he declares, that he will go in a very different manner, so as to draw upwards to himself those who were fixed on the earth. Now, though he alludes to the form of his death, yet he means generally, that his death will not be a division to separate him from men, but that it will be an additional means of drawing earth upwards towards heaven. I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying,There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold, (John 10:16.) John Calvin's Commentary on the Gospel of John. God Bless Tim, John |
||||||
7 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 43464 | ||
Greetings John! I'm glad that we are brothers my friend. I felt like I did deal with the verse - 'all' means 'all. :-) Of course I believe, as you do, that John 12:32 indicates what manner of death Jesus is about to face. However, that still doesn't negate Jesus' statement that He would 'draw' all men to Him. My problem with Calvin's approach is simple. I can quote literally hundreds of verses which state that God desires all to be saved, died for the sins of the world, that whosoever can respond, ect.... Calvin, because of his belief that God only elects some, take all of these clear statments and redefines them. All becomes some, whole becomes part, and whosoever becomes whosoever God gives the will to come. I was always taught that any interpretation which requires mental gymnastics to explain away the plain meaning of the words used is probably wrong. In fact, I use this principle when I teach new Christians how to study the Bible. Let me give you an example which is not associated with the C and A debate. I heard a guy on the radio once who argued that Mt. 24:36 didn't really mean that 'no one knows'. He argued that 'know' here meant general knowledge. So, it would not be common knowledge when Christ returned, but some would know. Obviously, this is a case of mental gymnastics. My contention with many of Calvin's positions is that He does the same thing with the universal passages. The only way I would ever convert to Calvin's way of thinking is if someone can produce verses which plainly (not based upon one's inference) that: 1) God does not desire to save all. 2) Christ did not die for all. 3) That not everyone can respond. If someone can produce clear statements of these facts, then I could accept Calvinism. Until then my friend, this thread could go on forever. :-) So, I recommend we leave it as is. We have lain out our positions and those who read the forum can decide for themselves which position is Biblical and which is not. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
8 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 43469 | ||
Dear Tim, 1) God does not desire to save all. 2) Christ did not die for all. 3) That not everyone can respond. I will put your questions on my wall in a conspicuous place and over the course of time, and if it pleases God, I will strive to answer them. But have no fear, I expect it will take a well documented presentation (which should afford you awell deserved respite) and the illumination of the Spirit for you to seriously reconsider your theology. Thanks for your thoughtful and courteous responses to my never ending posts. Your Brother John |
||||||