Results 1 - 18 of 18
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42011 | ||
Dear Tim, Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." This verse seems to support your view regarding our insecure salvation. But if we continue to Christ's conclusion, we learn the full meaning. Luke 8:18 "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him." Evangelists like Billy Graham preach the Gospel to huge crowds. They call upon their audience to leave their seats and come forward to recieve Christ. Many people repond and do so with tears of joy. But it is a fact that out of that crowd of professors many, if not most, never darken the doors of the church. I believe that their are among this crowd a number who continue to believe they are saved on the basis of walking an aisle and repeating a prayer. These are the so called "believers" who fall away. Your a pastor I'msure youmust be familiar with folks who go to church for all sorts of carnal purposes and yet call themselves christians. But they bear no fruit. I have to go to work but I would like to go deeper into the passages that refer to falling away. John Reformed |
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2 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42065 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the input my friend! Allow to clarify two quick points if I may! 1) First of all, I don't think that the parable of the Four Soils is a 'falling away' passage. I believe that it refers to four responses to the gospel, only one of which is genuine - not to people falling away from true faith. 2) Secondly, I don't believe in an insecure salvation. :-) I don't believe that an act (or acts) of sin causes one to lose their salvation. I don't believe that one can un-earn his salvation. I don't believe that one can wake up and discover that he is no longer a Christian. My position is simply this! One accepts salvation as a free gift. It can never be taken from us. However, through sin and rebellion, I believe that one can reach a place of such hard heartedness that one will willfully choose to reject Christ and His gift of salvation. At that point (Heb. 6:4-6), that person is no longer saved. And, as long as they continue to crucify Christ afresh, that person cannot be brought back to repentance for they have rejected the only source of life and salvation - Christ. In other words, I believe that Heb. 6:4-6 is a warning against something which is actually possible. To warn against something which isn’t possible seems very odd at best! A better passage to describe what I believe would be Heb. 3:12-14: "2 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." Here is a passage which states what I have described: that sin can harden our hearts and lead to apostasy. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Cyclist | 42071 | ||
Brother Tim, The joy of the Lord is my strength! Praise be to God our Father for the great things that He has done! Praise be to Jesus Christ who did not think of Himself but loved us enough to die for our sins! Just a note to say that I appreciated your most recent post on this subject. Your brother in Christ, Cyclist I will bless the Lord at all times! |
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4 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42074 | ||
Greetings Cyclist! Thanks my brother! One thing that we all agree on is that our God is a gracious God and none of us deserves His grace! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42085 | ||
Dear Tim, Let me see if I can figure this out. We all agree that none of us deserve grace, but once we have recieved that grace (along with a new heart and new nature, mind you) we can then spurn that grace just like any garden variety fallen son of Adam. Is that right? If so, is Christ a failure in that He lost one who the father gave Him. Is He a liar because He said "of all the Father has given me I will lose nothing but raise them up on the last day? No, Never!!! John John |
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6 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42098 | ||
Greetings John! My friend, I keep trying to be polite and highlight areas where we agree. It is alright if you disagree with my positions, but please realize that I'm not just pulling this stuff out of the air. There are many Scriptures which speak of persevering 'if'. I used to work as a computer programmer. If statements in logic work this way: If (condition) then (result) Else (some other result). So, the if passages of Scripture can be viewed in the following way: Example Col. 1:22-23 If you continue in your faith then you will be presented holy in His sight else (you will not be presented holy in His sight). My statements would only be contradictory to Scripture if you could produce a single verse which says that one cannot reject God's grace after having accepted it. I don't recall any such verse. The "I have not lost any" passage occurs in the context where there is one exception - Judas (John 17:12). My main point though is simply that while we may see some points differently, we are still brothers in Christ. Even though I disagree with some of your positions, I recognize that you are a believer and I don't impugn your motives. Please return the courtesy! Your brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42108 | ||
Dear Tim, "If you continue in your faith then you will be presented holy in His sight else (you will not be presented holy in His sight)." Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. If He can't finish it no one can. I don't mean to impugn your motives, but your view is diametricaly opposed to mine. If I tend to lose my cool, it is because of my zeal for God's glory. You wrote: The "I have not lost any" passage occurs in the context where there is one exception -Judas (John 17:12)." Do you mean to imply that Judas was one whom the Father gave to the son (I feel as if I'm entering fantasyland). Post me asap and tell me I'm mistaken! John 6:37-40 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." I don't know how much clearer a verse could be? John |
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8 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42146 | ||
Greetings John! See, these are the kinds of comments to which I was referring. You wrote: "Do you mean to imply that Judas was one whom the Father gave to the son (I feel as if I'm entering fantasyland). Post me asap and tell me I'm mistaken!" If you disagree that John 17:12 is a reference to Judas, then simply lay out your case from Scripture. Here is the verse: "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." Every commentator I have ever read (and that is quite a few) has seen this as a reference to Judas. If you disagree, that's fine. There really isn't any need for heat. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are within the veil of othrodox Christianity. If someone were proclaiming heresy on the forum, I would be the first to join in (politely), but firmly, calling them to justify what they are saying from Scripture. But, the differences between C and A are not differences between orthodoxy and heresy. At least, they have not been historically seen as such! So, take a deep breath! :-) Now, explain to me why John 17:12 isn't a reference to Judas! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42189 | ||
Good Morning Tim, I have taken a deep breath and asked the Lord to grant me patience and love in my speech. Thanks for the reminder. I as well believe Judas is the one referred to in John 17:12. But Judas was not chosen by God; Judas was not one of the elect. Jesus Himself called him a devil. He was a mere professor and a tare among the wheat. What caused me to become so upset was the implication that Christ lost Judas. That he was given to Jesus but fell away from the faith. If you review your posts leading up to my outraged respose, I don't think you could say it was totaly unjustified. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, and if so I apologize, but frankly I don't see how I could have taken it any other way. Do you believe that Judas was a true believer who fell from grace? If that is indeed what you believe, what then do we do with John 6:37-40? Your Friend, John |
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10 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42253 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the reply my friend! It wasn't your understanding that I was concerned about my friend, but simply your way of expressing your difference of opinion. I do believe that it is possible (but very rare) for a true believer to reject Christ and be lost. But again, I note that this is not an heretical view. Does it differ from Calvinism? Yes! Is it heresy? No! We simply disagree on this issue. But, if I disagree with someone, I will usually say so and then state why, hopefully based on Scripture! :-) Emotionals statements and or exclamations don't really lead to mutually beneficial discussions. Now we have some common ground to build upon. I too think that Judas is referred to in John 17:12. However, we do diverge in that I think that Judas was one of those given to Christ - or a true believer. Here is why: John 17:12 is an exception clause. The text itself says, "Not one of them was lost except for the son of destruction." An exception means that what was true of the first group was not true of the last. The rest of the disciples were not lost, but Judas was lost. In order for him to be lost, he had to have been one of them to begin with. How does this relate to John 6:37-40? In the same way that 1 Tim. 2:4 relates to John 5:29. God's will is that all will be saved, but not all will be saved. God's will is that none be lost, but Judas was lost. If we are going to say that because God wills something it must occur, then we would have to save that all will be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). We would have to say that Jerusalem would have embraced God (Mt. 23:37). Therefore, there must be some sort of condition upon God's will for us. This is where I believe that all of the 'if' passages come into play. Now, I know how a Calvinist will generally respond to 1 Tim. 2:4. He will typically argue that 'all' doesn't mean 'all'. So, you probably won't find 1 Tim. 2:4 convicing as a proof that man can resist God's will for them. However, Mt. 223:37 is a different case. There is no word 'all'. :-) So, before you faint from my outrageous view that something God willed could fail to come to pass (because of conditions only), please explain to me how Jerusalem could resist the express will of God in Mt. 23:37? These types of dicussions can get long since there are so many issues to discussion. May I recommend that we focus on the following for now? 1) To what does the excemption clause of John 17:12 refer? Was Judas lost or not? 2) Can God's will for our lives be impacted by our choices? For instance, can God desire someone to be saved and that person not be saved? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42283 | ||
Dear Tim, Thanks for your careful consideration of my post. Too many times, I respond before fully apprehending the thoughts of the writer (these lessons inhumility are no fun at all!). I'll get to your points sraightaway. 1) To what does the excemption clause of John 17:12 refer? Was Judas lost or not? My resonse is YES Judas was lost but he was never saved. I'll explain: "but Christ’s distinguishing Judas from those that were given him (for ei meµ is adversative, not exceptive) intimates that the truth and true religion ought not to suffer for the treachery of those that are false to it, 1 Jn. 2:19." (M. Henry Bible Commentary) The NASB translates ei meµ as except. The King James uses but. This may weaken your premise which is based on the word except. I don't consider this to be a small point, for if Henry is indeed correct, your contention is made on a flawed interpretation. My second point is that Jesus immediately labels Judas as "the son of destruction". I am not clear on why Judas is called by this term. It implies a state of being to me. When did Judas begin to reflect this title? We have no indication from scripture, except that whenever he is mentioned it is as a thorough-going rotter! When was he ever presented to us as an ardent lover of Christ? Never! Thirdly, we cannot overlook the fact that Judas was lost for a particular reason which was so that Scripture might be fulfilled. That can mean but one thing (please don't faint); Judas was preordained to perish. What else could it mean? One final point comes to mind. Why would God send His son to die for people He already knew were doomed? Would it not have been kinder to not have created them at all? Just a thought. 2) Can God's will for our lives be impacted by our choices? For instance, can God desire someone to be saved and that person not be saved? NO. God is soveriegn over all his creation. He has an eternal pupose that He will unfailingly accomplish. The Westminster Confession Chapter 3 - Of God's Eternal Decree 1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Heb 6:17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Tim, I've gone on too long and better sign off. Two questions. Of what benefit is the new creation if it can be cast aside like a garment? What do we have that we have not been given by God? One more question and I promise to close my mouth. God was not obliged to save anyone, if out of pure mercy He chose to save some and let others contiue in rebellion, how would that be unfair? Thanks Tim, John Reformed |
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12 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42582 | ||
Greetings John! Excellent post my friend! This is an excellent example of how two brothers in Christ can disagree and discuss Biblical issue - through a friendly examination of Scripture! I’m going to respond in two posts so that we can focus on the different issues more closely. John 17:12 - Was Judas Lost? What does ‘ei mei’ mean? The two words are literally ‘if not’. A. T. Robertson’s "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament" (Long version) says of ‘ei mei’: "(vi) Ei mei. This phrase marks an exception, as in Mt. 12:4; Jo. 17:12. We even have ektos ei mei (1 Cor. 14:5; 15:2; 1 Tim. 5:19)." (pg. 1188). This phrase is used 86 times in the New Testament. All of them that I have examined introduce exceptions. In fact, an adversative pretty much does the same thing. Webster’s defines ‘adversative’ as "…expressing opposition or antithesis." An English example would be: "All of my disciples loved me, but not Judas." Or "All of my disciples loved me, except for Judas. The point is that the statement made in the first clause is not true of the person mentioned in the second exceptive clause. The first clause of John 17:12 says that "none of them have been lost". The exception, anti-thesis, is Judas. There simply isn’t any way grammatically to say that Judas was not the exception to the first clause. Let’s look at a couple of examples of this phrase from John: a) John 3:13 - "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." b) John 6:46 - "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." c) John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, ‘‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Even John Calvin recognized that Judas was an exception to the rest of the disciples. His way of harmonizing this verse with His theology though was to say that the verse was not speaking of salvation. He said: "The same account is to be given of the passage lately quoted, in which Christ says, that none is lost but the son of perdition, (John 17:12.) The expression is not strictly proper; but it is by no means obscure: for Judas was not numbered among the sheep of Christ, because he was one truly, but because he held a place among them. Then, in another passage, where the Lord says, that he was elected with the apostles, reference is made only to the office, "Have I not chosen you twelve," says he, "and one of you is a devil?" (John 6: 70.) That is, he had chosen him to the office of apostle. But when he speaks of election to salvation, he altogether excludes him from the number of the elect, "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen," (John 13: 18.) Should any one confound the term elect in the two passages, he will miserably entangle himself; whereas if he distinguish between them, nothing can be plainer." (Institutes - Book 3, Chapter 24, Section 9). Thus, there seems to be only two ways of looking at this verse. 1) It is not speaking of salvation, in which case it can not be used to say that no one can ever reject one’s salvation. 2) Or, it is speaking of salvation, and demonstrates that some who are saved can subsequently be lost. The only problem with option 1 is that John consistently uses ‘destroyed or lost’ as the opposite of eternal life. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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13 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42607 | ||
Dear Tim, John 6:70...Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"... Jesus is addresing the fact that He chose the 12 apostles. John 13:18..."I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'... Jesus here speaks to the 12 apostles but says that not all of them are chosen by Him! I can not help but notice that in John 13:18, Jesus gives the OT Scripture that answers the question regarding what scriptue He referred to In John 17:12. Therefore, unless we be found guilty of claiming a contradiction, we must look to verses that more clearly speak to the subject of Judas's election. We have already are involved in He 6:6, which led us to John 17:12 and I believe we are at an impasse there. Let me address Matt 23 in my repy to your 2nd post. Soli Deo Gloria, John |
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14 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42633 | ||
Greetings John! Not to keep beating a dead horse, but may I make a quick observation about John 6:70. The Greek literally reads: "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you - the Twelve? And out of you one is a devil.'" Grammatically, Judas was included among the 12 who were chosen. Jesus Himself asked, "Did I not choose you - the Twelve?" Then, He states that "from" the twelve (who were chosen by Him), one is a devil. If Jesus meant to say that Judas was not one of the 12 who were chosen, He would have said that He had chosen 11! ;-) And, out of the 12, one is a devil. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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15 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42643 | ||
Dear Tim, You failed to address the apparent contradiction to John 6:70 from John 13:18. Calvins point was that in the first instance the election of Judas was to the office of apostle. In the 2nd instance it was made obvious that Judas was not among the others elected unto salvation. John |
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16 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42658 | ||
Greetings John! Evening my friend! John 13:8 doesn't say that Judas was not chosen. This would make it a contradiction to John 6:70 which says he was chosen. John 13:8 simply says "I do not say this concerning all of you, for I know whom I have chosen." The reference to "not all of you" could be a reference to the promised blessing of JOhn 13:7. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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17 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42713 | ||
Dear Tim, Good Morning! I really don't see any justification (except the demand of one's presuppositions) for connecting verse 7 with 18. John 13:18 clearly shows that Christ had not chosen all of the 12 and we agree that the unamed person was Judas. Brother John |
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18 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42756 | ||
Greetings John! Good morning to you as well my friend! I think you may have mis-read my response. I didn't say v. 7, but v. 17. My point was simply that a contradiction involves one verse saying one thing while another verse says the exact opposite - in the same terms. John 13:18 does not say, "I did not choose one of you". It says, "I am not speaking of all of you, for I know whom I have chosen." This can be interpreted in a couple of ways. 1) Your way: "I am not speaking of all of you" means that not all were chosen. 2) Or: "I am not speaking of all of you" could refer to the blessing just mentioned in v. 17. In this case, the phrase "I know whom I have chosen" affirms His knowledge of what will or will not happen to those He has chosen. For it to contradict John 6:70, it would have to say, "I did not choose all of you." I do agree that the unnamed person is Judas! The difference between this verse and John 6:70 though is that 6:70 specifically says that He chose all 12, while 13:18 does not say that Judas was not choosen. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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