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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42283 | ||
Dear Tim, Thanks for your careful consideration of my post. Too many times, I respond before fully apprehending the thoughts of the writer (these lessons inhumility are no fun at all!). I'll get to your points sraightaway. 1) To what does the excemption clause of John 17:12 refer? Was Judas lost or not? My resonse is YES Judas was lost but he was never saved. I'll explain: "but Christ’s distinguishing Judas from those that were given him (for ei meµ is adversative, not exceptive) intimates that the truth and true religion ought not to suffer for the treachery of those that are false to it, 1 Jn. 2:19." (M. Henry Bible Commentary) The NASB translates ei meµ as except. The King James uses but. This may weaken your premise which is based on the word except. I don't consider this to be a small point, for if Henry is indeed correct, your contention is made on a flawed interpretation. My second point is that Jesus immediately labels Judas as "the son of destruction". I am not clear on why Judas is called by this term. It implies a state of being to me. When did Judas begin to reflect this title? We have no indication from scripture, except that whenever he is mentioned it is as a thorough-going rotter! When was he ever presented to us as an ardent lover of Christ? Never! Thirdly, we cannot overlook the fact that Judas was lost for a particular reason which was so that Scripture might be fulfilled. That can mean but one thing (please don't faint); Judas was preordained to perish. What else could it mean? One final point comes to mind. Why would God send His son to die for people He already knew were doomed? Would it not have been kinder to not have created them at all? Just a thought. 2) Can God's will for our lives be impacted by our choices? For instance, can God desire someone to be saved and that person not be saved? NO. God is soveriegn over all his creation. He has an eternal pupose that He will unfailingly accomplish. The Westminster Confession Chapter 3 - Of God's Eternal Decree 1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Heb 6:17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Tim, I've gone on too long and better sign off. Two questions. Of what benefit is the new creation if it can be cast aside like a garment? What do we have that we have not been given by God? One more question and I promise to close my mouth. God was not obliged to save anyone, if out of pure mercy He chose to save some and let others contiue in rebellion, how would that be unfair? Thanks Tim, John Reformed |
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2 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42582 | ||
Greetings John! Excellent post my friend! This is an excellent example of how two brothers in Christ can disagree and discuss Biblical issue - through a friendly examination of Scripture! I’m going to respond in two posts so that we can focus on the different issues more closely. John 17:12 - Was Judas Lost? What does ‘ei mei’ mean? The two words are literally ‘if not’. A. T. Robertson’s "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament" (Long version) says of ‘ei mei’: "(vi) Ei mei. This phrase marks an exception, as in Mt. 12:4; Jo. 17:12. We even have ektos ei mei (1 Cor. 14:5; 15:2; 1 Tim. 5:19)." (pg. 1188). This phrase is used 86 times in the New Testament. All of them that I have examined introduce exceptions. In fact, an adversative pretty much does the same thing. Webster’s defines ‘adversative’ as "…expressing opposition or antithesis." An English example would be: "All of my disciples loved me, but not Judas." Or "All of my disciples loved me, except for Judas. The point is that the statement made in the first clause is not true of the person mentioned in the second exceptive clause. The first clause of John 17:12 says that "none of them have been lost". The exception, anti-thesis, is Judas. There simply isn’t any way grammatically to say that Judas was not the exception to the first clause. Let’s look at a couple of examples of this phrase from John: a) John 3:13 - "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." b) John 6:46 - "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." c) John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, ‘‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Even John Calvin recognized that Judas was an exception to the rest of the disciples. His way of harmonizing this verse with His theology though was to say that the verse was not speaking of salvation. He said: "The same account is to be given of the passage lately quoted, in which Christ says, that none is lost but the son of perdition, (John 17:12.) The expression is not strictly proper; but it is by no means obscure: for Judas was not numbered among the sheep of Christ, because he was one truly, but because he held a place among them. Then, in another passage, where the Lord says, that he was elected with the apostles, reference is made only to the office, "Have I not chosen you twelve," says he, "and one of you is a devil?" (John 6: 70.) That is, he had chosen him to the office of apostle. But when he speaks of election to salvation, he altogether excludes him from the number of the elect, "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen," (John 13: 18.) Should any one confound the term elect in the two passages, he will miserably entangle himself; whereas if he distinguish between them, nothing can be plainer." (Institutes - Book 3, Chapter 24, Section 9). Thus, there seems to be only two ways of looking at this verse. 1) It is not speaking of salvation, in which case it can not be used to say that no one can ever reject one’s salvation. 2) Or, it is speaking of salvation, and demonstrates that some who are saved can subsequently be lost. The only problem with option 1 is that John consistently uses ‘destroyed or lost’ as the opposite of eternal life. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42607 | ||
Dear Tim, John 6:70...Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"... Jesus is addresing the fact that He chose the 12 apostles. John 13:18..."I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'... Jesus here speaks to the 12 apostles but says that not all of them are chosen by Him! I can not help but notice that in John 13:18, Jesus gives the OT Scripture that answers the question regarding what scriptue He referred to In John 17:12. Therefore, unless we be found guilty of claiming a contradiction, we must look to verses that more clearly speak to the subject of Judas's election. We have already are involved in He 6:6, which led us to John 17:12 and I believe we are at an impasse there. Let me address Matt 23 in my repy to your 2nd post. Soli Deo Gloria, John |
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4 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42633 | ||
Greetings John! Not to keep beating a dead horse, but may I make a quick observation about John 6:70. The Greek literally reads: "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you - the Twelve? And out of you one is a devil.'" Grammatically, Judas was included among the 12 who were chosen. Jesus Himself asked, "Did I not choose you - the Twelve?" Then, He states that "from" the twelve (who were chosen by Him), one is a devil. If Jesus meant to say that Judas was not one of the 12 who were chosen, He would have said that He had chosen 11! ;-) And, out of the 12, one is a devil. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42643 | ||
Dear Tim, You failed to address the apparent contradiction to John 6:70 from John 13:18. Calvins point was that in the first instance the election of Judas was to the office of apostle. In the 2nd instance it was made obvious that Judas was not among the others elected unto salvation. John |
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6 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42658 | ||
Greetings John! Evening my friend! John 13:8 doesn't say that Judas was not chosen. This would make it a contradiction to John 6:70 which says he was chosen. John 13:8 simply says "I do not say this concerning all of you, for I know whom I have chosen." The reference to "not all of you" could be a reference to the promised blessing of JOhn 13:7. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | John Reformed | 42713 | ||
Dear Tim, Good Morning! I really don't see any justification (except the demand of one's presuppositions) for connecting verse 7 with 18. John 13:18 clearly shows that Christ had not chosen all of the 12 and we agree that the unamed person was Judas. Brother John |
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8 | Hebrews 6:6 explained | Hebrews | Morant61 | 42756 | ||
Greetings John! Good morning to you as well my friend! I think you may have mis-read my response. I didn't say v. 7, but v. 17. My point was simply that a contradiction involves one verse saying one thing while another verse says the exact opposite - in the same terms. John 13:18 does not say, "I did not choose one of you". It says, "I am not speaking of all of you, for I know whom I have chosen." This can be interpreted in a couple of ways. 1) Your way: "I am not speaking of all of you" means that not all were chosen. 2) Or: "I am not speaking of all of you" could refer to the blessing just mentioned in v. 17. In this case, the phrase "I know whom I have chosen" affirms His knowledge of what will or will not happen to those He has chosen. For it to contradict John 6:70, it would have to say, "I did not choose all of you." I do agree that the unnamed person is Judas! The difference between this verse and John 6:70 though is that 6:70 specifically says that He chose all 12, while 13:18 does not say that Judas was not choosen. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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