Results 1 - 15 of 15
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Larrytw | 105303 | ||
"many churches across Amer. have no resemblelance of a house of worship" What does a house of worship supposed to look like? Actually we "are" the house. It is just our preconceived ideas that cause us to think the way we do. I say that if souls are being saved and lives are being changed....bring on the band, the lights, and the comfortable chairs, etc. Larry...... |
||||||
2 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Mommapbs | 105319 | ||
Greetings Larry! My this is an old post of mine, and yet I am still struggling with all of this. The "sanctuary" is now called an auditorium and the platfrom from which the Gospel is to be preached is called a stage. There are curtains for performances and places for a myriad of props. The orchestra has center stage and there is no cross in sight. If you walked into this facility, would you know you were in the house of God? Yes, I agree it is the people who make up the church, but a show of hands does not mean that souls are being saved and lived changed . . . especially since very few, if any, show up for a "discipleship class." I'm with Brian McClaren on this point, conversion is more than getting people's "butts into heaven" (From "A New Kind of Christian"). Programming is paramount and numbers are more important than names. Is this what post-modern Christianity is becoming? - Come quickly, Lord Jesus! Longing for a return to humility and reverence . . . mommapbs PS:Building The Church (pbs '01) Rick Joyner, in "shadows of things to come," explores the history of the church and urges us to learn from the mistakes of the past as we contemplate the future. He challenges us to examine our purposes as a body of believers. “We cannot try to build the church of God upon charismatic preachers, regardless of how true their preaching is or how great their gifts. The true church will only be built upon the one Foundation, Jesus Christ Himself. We should always ask the question, ‘Why are people coming to our churches?’ Is it because they agree with our doctrine? Is it because of our dynamic ministry? Is it because of our facilities? Our music? Or is it because the Lord Jesus Himself is in our midst, and we are all being joined in Him?” What are we building? Or, is perhaps the right question, WHO is being built? After the “building” is complete, what will we see - a façade, a facility or a Foundation? From the beginning of the early church to present day revivals, Mr. Joyner reminds us of the necessity to adhere to the Biblical pattern that God has established for His people: Prayer. God’s people prayed. There was no organization or “plan,” for programs do not move the Hand of God - prayer does! Prayer prepares the hearts of the individual members of the body of Christ. This process involves a humbling and a repentance that is individual as well as corporate. God tells us what we must do before He can begin to lay His Foundation upon which He will build His church. The ground must be prepared. It must be Holy. “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 Sin does not reside in a building, but it often hides in a believer. We can tear down walls and rebuild, but we are powerless to eradicate the real hindrance to growth – sin in the church. Too many people confuse the church as a place rather than the living body of Christ on this planet. We must recognize that no ministry is sufficient to build the church; this is a work of God alone. As the Lord transforms our hearts and builds His church in and through us, we will find that no edifice or program will be able to contain the outpouring of the Spirit that accompanies this construction! The “if we build it they will come” mentality is inappropriate for the church when God is truly the architect and builder! Joyner reminds us that a baby is not birthed by the labor, but rather the labor is caused by the presence of the baby. God desires to build His church within us. The seed of Christ has been planted. As believers, we must nurture this kernel within ourselves and encourage one another to “grow up in Him.” If we attend to building the spiritual walls first, all future construction (physical as well!) will be a reflection of Christ, the true church. BTW, my chuch has a weekly prayer mtg. 5-6 people regularly attend - and our "church" attendence is over 1,000! |
||||||
3 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Hank | 105330 | ||
Dear Mommapbs - Here's a little hinge (but little hinges swing big doors!) to add to your thoughts about the approach some of today's church leaders are taking toward attracting people to their doorsteps. I don't know that Jesus or His disciples spent much time and effort on putting together attractive church programs with which to lure people into fancy houses of worship. I do know that Jesus and His apostles spend a good deal of time on the road, taking the Good News out to people where they lived. Later on, Paul and those who accompanied him on his journeys were not exactly on luxurious vacation cruises. The phenomenal growth of the Apostolic church was not centered around, or the result of, fancy church programs or magnificant buildings. It was a matter of the church going out to the people with an urgent message -- the message of the Way -- that impacted their very lives. The Apostolic church did not sit on their blessed assurance and plan attractive "programs" to lure people to "come to church." They recognized that they WERE the church and did as Christ commanded them to do, which was to GO into the world and preach the Gospel. I'm afraid some of us have the cart before the horse, thinking that it is the duty of the unsaved to seek us out, when clearly it is our duty to seek them out. What we should be doing is not inviting the lost to "come to church" but we, the church, should be going to them. Well, that's my little hinge, Mommapbs. Do you think it might swing big doors if it were used? Blessings, dear heart. --Hank | ||||||
4 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Mommapbs | 105331 | ||
Hank you are ringing my chimes! I have been so upset with the call from the pulpit and other leaders to bring the lost to church! Amen - we are the church and we should take it to them! Lost folks need to see the authenticity of CHRIST in the lives of folks they KNOW, not some charismatic preacher who puts on a dog and pony show under the guise of the gospel. Harsh words? Maybe, but you really struck a nerve tonight! Blessings and thanks for the hinge! mommapbs |
||||||
5 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105363 | ||
mommapbs Glad to hear your chimes got rang. :-) I can't agree enough. These verses Acts 2:47; 5:14; 11:24 which to me imply the people were first saved then added to the church and they were first saved by people going out to the market and meeting places. You are also very right on your comment about the lack of discipleship within the church, Ephesians 4:11-12 clearly states the mission of the church. It is not programs, buildings, fine preaching, or many of the other things we see the church doing today. The Churches total charge is to make disciples teaching and equipping them to do the work of the Lord. In case anyone has forgotten the work of the Lord is seen in Matthew 28:19-20 and Acts 1:8. Without discipleship the churches are producing shallow, self centered, what’s in for me Christians. If the trend doesn’t change soon the world will have every right to point to what we call church and say why would I want to be a part of that? The problem starts at the leadership. People that look for a way to measure success and determine it must mean building size, congregation size, ministerial salary, and care nothing about the spiritual wellbeing of those placed in they charge. The problems flows from the top right down to the congregation where people resist making commitments, spend time praying and studying God’s word, seeking instead only to have their felt needs met. We have become of a nation of very shallow people, going to very shallow churches, pastored by very shallow men, lead by very shallow leaders. All who look for their felts needs to be met rather than becoming servants to a living God. Thud!! That was me jumping off my soap box. :-) EdB |
||||||
6 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 105368 | ||
Greetings EdB! May I jump on my soap box for a moment my friend? :-) This isn't addressed to you specifically, but for all concerned. Just because a church is growing doesn't necessarily mean that it is shallow! To be sure, there are many shallow churches, but many of the churches which are growing are doing so because they are being blessed by God. My concern is that to often we try to fit churches to a cookie cutter pattern, and if a church doesn't fit our pattern, then it most be wrong. But, God can work through many different styles and methods. I'll give the soap box back now! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105427 | ||
Tim Let me ask you a question that was asked of me and one that I wrestle with. How many disciples have you made? How many are being made in the church you attend? I think that answer is clearly not enough, I don't care if it is a growing church or one in decline the fact of the matter too few true disciples are being made. Your right there are churches growing and they are not all shallow, however I wonder if the same effort that was applied to make the church grow was applied in making disciples, how the numbers would change? Would we see big churches or more sold out Christians. Incidently the numbers on actual church growth shows basically the churches have been trading people back in forth for the last 24 years. Experts that interpret those numbers tells us the church that is growing is actually drawing people from other churches, every few new converts are being made and even less disciples. Take a census in your own church and see where the people are coming from. Be blessed my brother. EdB |
||||||
8 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 105434 | ||
Greetings EdB! Good question! Our church is actually doing a pretty good job at making disciples. I lead our small group ministries, and several of our small groups are geared toward discipling new believers. Further, the Sunday School class I teach is a 'low-level' disciple class for new believers. One of the great joys I have had over the last couple of years is the role that I have been able to play in the spiritual development of several families of new converts. When I first started at this church, they had just accepted Christ. Now, they are on the Church board, teaching the teens, leading the men's ministries, serving as trustees, and most importantly, leading new people to Christ. Could we do more? I'm sure we could, but I am thrilled at what we are doing already. I know that discipleship has always been a passion of mine, especially since I read Bill Hull's, 'The Disciple Making Pastor'. :-) Each church I have pastored has had active discipleship groups. When God opens the door for me to pastor again, I will make an even bigger push. :-) I agree with you my friend that not enough are being made in many churches. The only reason I posted on this thread though was that many seem to believe that just because a church is growing it must selling out or watering down the Gospel. I don't believe this is necessarily the case. God calls us to grow. One of my favorite verses when I was pastoring was John 15:8: "This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." I have shared in the past that for years I had heard that Willow Creek Church was a sell out because they had geared things toward unbelievers. So, I finally checked for myself. I went to their web site and watched some of the pastor's messages. He preaches excellent and Biblical messages. Now, do I agree with everything they do? No! But, as we have seen on this forum, seldom do all of us agree on everything! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
9 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105444 | ||
Tim Was this disciple making or integrating new believers into the church? Most churches have classes for new "believers". In these classes the new people learn the "purpose" of church, learn they are needed as workers in the church, learn the reasons and need to tithe, significance of baptism and etc. Disciplining some one is more than basic Christianity for New Believers class (though that is a good start) it is reproducing ourselves in others. How many of these new believers or anyone for that matter has spent time with you as you; witnessed one on one to others, prayed for the needs of the church, for the salvation of others, how many went with you on hospital visitation, funerals, marriages, counseling sessions? Have they shared in your devotions, your personal prayer, have they seen you in your true relationship with God. Do you know where they are in Christ , not what they are doing in the church or on Sunday but how are they living day to day. Do you know what obstacles they are facing, problems they are dealing with, breakthroughs they have experienced. Do you have a close personal relationship with any and if so how many? How many of these people have turned off their TV and are out visiting and sharing Jesus instead of kicked back watching TV? How many could step into the pulpit and once past their early nervousness could bring forth the word in truth and victory? Tim I know nothing about Willow Creek Church or what they are doing in the area of disciple making, but I do question how you do the things I mentioned above to so many people and do it effectively. I wonder how many have ever sat down and even had a heart to heart conversation with “their” pastor. I wonder how many that will die while attending that church will have “their” pastor speak from his heart about them, what they did, accomplished for the Lord. If one of them is in the hospital can/will “their” pastor go and sit with the family until the crisis passes? Can he even walk into the room and know everyone without introducing himself to nearly everyone in the room? I used the term their pastor to say it doesn’t have to be the senior pastor himself just one of his disciples that is now a pastor. Most churches today want you saved, plugged in and attending and let the rest of the chips fall where they may. Most pastors are far to busy to even attempt to completely disciple a staff member let alone make disciples of the congregation. What we call church today is really nothing more than venue for the preacher to preach on Sunday. Everything else that takes place in the church is ancillary to the big event on Sunday morning. Where is the disciple making where is the relationship building, where is people getting turned on and sold out for Christ? EdB |
||||||
10 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 105458 | ||
Greetings EdB! I'll try to get to all the questions! ;-) What I have been doing is small group discipleship. The pastor teaches the new members classes. Some of what you mention is a part of our small group experience, while some is not. We do stress growth and witness quite a bit. But, the people that I have been working with have grown into the positions they are now filling. And, yes, they are sharing their faith very actively. Most of the new converts in our church are coming from these relatively new converts as they have grown in Christ. Now, we aren't a 'large' church, so the pastor does know everyone. :-) But, we are like most churches in that we have a committed core which I would say are disciples, and we have a large group who simply attend church. The unusual part about our church is that most of our committed core are realitively new believers. As far as Willow Creek is concerned, their small group structure allows the kind of relationships that you mention. Obviously, in a large congregation, everyone can't know everyone else. But, the small group leaders serve as under shepherds, ministrying to the needs of those in their group. So, the senior pastor may not know every single individual, but every individual is being pastored by someone. One of the best discipleship programs that I have been exposed to is from one of the pastors in my former denomination of the United Brethren in Christ. It is a two year intensive program which focuses mostly on Bible knowledge and spiritual disciplines for the first year, and then on ministry opportunties the second year. It is the people in our small groups though who are growing, serving, and sharing. And, they are mostly definitely turned on and sold out for Christ! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
11 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105460 | ||
Tim Then let me state what your doing is the exception and not the rule. I also suspect the discipleship and mentoring you received is what influenced you to go into the ministry. Of course there is always a core group in every church the old 20 80 principal but as Mommapbs said she attends a church of 1000 and 5 or 6 show up for prayer. As for the Willow Creek church again I can not say what they are doing first hand but I have had experience with people coming out of a similar background. We knew one man that attended a rather large church with many home groups patterned directly off of Willow Creek. His son got into a little trouble and their attorney suggested that his pastor be present to offer character references. the family attended the church the 5 years regularly and the previous 3 years on and off. They had been in the home study program. The son attended both youth group and youth church. When the father went to the church to see the senior pastor he could not. As a side bar the father saw the pastor that very day out riding his Harley Hog motorcycle with his black leather vest that shows he is a "regular guy." He then asked the youth pastor to serve as reference. The youth pastor said he could not remember the son therefore could not stand for him. He went to the home group pastor and asked for his support we was turned down and told his home group leader was advised due to liability conflicts not to get involved. End result after attending 5 years solid and the 3 years previous to that on and off he could no one in the seeker church that would stand in court as a character witness of the son. I knew the boy an can say he was in fact a good kid. I'm I saying Willow creek and home groups are wrong no. But they aren't the panacea of the church that many make them to be. It takes disciple makers to disciple and make a group of committed individuals. I would guess if asked the same question to the clergy of this country, "Are you making disciples?" An honest answer would result in less than 5 percent saying yes. The "experts" tell us that since 76 the church has not grown and any new grow experienced in the church is merely the trading of people. That new converts merely replace those that die or leave. Be blessed my brother EdB |
||||||
12 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | SpinyNorman73 | 105869 | ||
As a new visitor to this site I have enjoyed reading these posts and look forward to reading more. One thing concerns me. I see a lot of generalizing going on. Is not the expression "AMERICAN CHURCH" itself an oxymoron? Take just for one example this family who has trouble finding a member of the pastoral staff to counsel them or give a character reference. Does this mean every "american curch" is like this? No it does not. It sounds to me like this man needs to prayerfully consider discussing this serious matter with the head pastor or find a new congregation to join. The phrase "american church" troubles me for I was under the impression we were to be a global church. The one thing I have sadly seen on a consistent basis that the "american church" does well is to attack the worship styles and or beliefs that they do not approve of. The final word on these matters has, does, and always will rest with God. Go to His word, prayerfully read and consider what you find inside, then go and do it. In a nation sadly in need of examples, far too many of us "american christians" are far too busy attaking each other over tiny details and the main message is getting missed. How Satan must laugh. We, as a body of believers, need more than anything else to show our own country the love of Jesus Christ. Why did crowds follow Jesus. More than the miracles, more than the times. I believe they followed him because he was REAL to them. Jesus tore down the traditional salvation by works thinking of the pharasees. He met people where they were. Plain and simple. He loved and accepted, just as they were. Though he did not condone whatever sin they were living in, he made the human connection. THAT is what the "american church" is lacking. Not where you rest your hind parts during service or wether or not they serve coffee after service. Our attention is being cleverly diverted. And our country suffers. Brian |
||||||
13 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105871 | ||
Brian The branch of this thread you responded to, was discussing discipleship within the church. Christianity once a powerful influence in many nations is declining and the question was why? Is it because the message is outdated? or the music isn't right? or we aren't doing enough evangelism, or that Christianity just doesn't seem to work? The discussion came to the point of discipleship and that is where I made my comments that you responded to. While I could probably attempt to speak about the church of the world I think I would be better able to speak to what I have directly observed here in the States. Your right, in the example I gave, the men did need to find another church. But that wasn't why I used his example. I gave that example as a way to show what is taking place in many churches around this nation and I believe also around the world. The church has placed it’s focus not on making disciples but building numbers. Churches will go to most any measure to draw more people in but in most cases they do not have resources in place to disciple them once they do come in. Your last paragraph is actually a confirmation of what I was saying. EdB |
||||||
14 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | Mommapbs | 105885 | ||
EdB, you wrote, "Churches will go to most any measure to draw more people in but in most cases they do not have resources in place to disciple them once they do come in." AMEN! Presently, my church has grown in NUMBER by about 20 percent. We have outgrown our present facility and are building a HUGE "worship center" nearby to accomodate this "growth." But as you note, there is little or no vehicle in place to disciple all that enter in. We have "small groups" BUT, these tightly controlled, they are "arranged" and "programmed" just like our morning "worship" services. As you can see, I'm a tad bit discouraged. . . but there is hope, for the top item on our prayer list for the body is DISCIPLESHIP! Everything starts with prayer; so I know I am in the right place there! mommapbs |
||||||
15 | How to "win the world" ? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 105886 | ||
mommapbs When it is all said and done this is the most important thing of all. "but there is hope, for the top item on our prayer list for the body is DISCIPLESHIP!" Prayer works and prayer is the answer! EdB |
||||||