Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102135 | ||
Does God change His mind based on new information? Can man influence God to repent of something that God had intended? Or is there another explanation why for passages such as Amos 7:6? I have my own ideas on the question but would be interested in hearing your reasoning as well. Thanks, John Reformed |
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2 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102136 | ||
Greetings John! Scripture is clear that God's nature never changes. However, His interactions with man do seem to change. There are only two ways to explain passages like Amos 7:6 (that I can think of). Either, God never really changed His mind, and Scripture lied. Or, at least some of God's interactions with man are conditional and dependent upon our responses to Him. An excellent example of this conditional relationship is explained by God Himself in Jer. 18:5-10: "5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 'O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?' declares the LORD. 'Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.'" Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102147 | ||
Dear Tim, "Scripture is clear that God's nature never changes. However, His interactions with man do seem to change." I cannot comprehend Omniscience facing anything of an unexpected nature. "There are only two ways to explain passages like Amos 7:6 (that I can think of). Either, God never really changed His mind, and Scripture lied." Well Tim, I know you believe that Scripture never lies, so your explation must be, as you said "God never really changed His mind, Or, at least some of God's interactions with man are conditional and dependent upon our responses to Him." But, is it not true that God has always known what all nations would do? He knew before He created them whether or not they would repent; Did'nt He? It seems to me that Jer. 18: 5-10 is God proclaiming His sovereign power. If any nation shall repents (after recieving His warning) of evil they will be spared from disaster. Could it not be that God is simply telling Israel the principles by which He rules over peoples and nations? J.I. Packer, in "Knowing God", makes the following statement: Repenting means revising one's judgement and changing one's plan of action. God never does this. He never needs to, for His plans are made on a basis of complete knowledge and control which extends to all things past, present and future, so that there can be no sudden emergencies or unexpected developments to take Him by surprise. Could it be that Amos was employing a "manner of speaking" when He said: The LORD changed His mind about this. (?) John |
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4 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102151 | ||
Greetings John! We agree that God is not surprised by anything. :-) But, if we start making words not mean what they mean, then language becomes meaningless. :-) For instance, in the Jer. 18 passage. God doesn't say, if a nation repents, I will go ahead and do what I planned all along anyway. God says, "...then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." I note two things in this passage. One that God does in fact change his intention. The word 'relent' is the word 'repent'. Secondly, that the judgement was not hypothetical, but God had 'planned' it. Where I think Packer is wrong in connection with this passage is that many of God's plans are conditional. When God gives options, then God's plan is flexible, not set in stone (at least from our temporal perspective). But, I don't see any justification for making the clear statements that God changed His plan mean something other than what they say. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102157 | ||
Thanks Tim, However, the question remains...How could it be that an omniscient and omnipotent Being find Himself in a circumstance which required Him to alter a plan that has existed throughout eternity? God's plan flexible? Sorry Tim, but God knew what amos would say already and He also knew what His own resonse would be as well. So that must have been part of His plan also...to have Amos plead and for Himself to consent to his plea. Don't you think so? John |
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6 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 102160 | ||
Greetings John! No, for one simple reason: It would make God a liar. God Himself said that He relented. There are a number of times where God is said to have relented. Ex. 23:14 - "Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." Ps. 106:45 - "for their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented." Jer. 18:8 - " and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." Jer. 26:3 - "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done." Jer. 26:13 - "Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the LORD your God. Then the LORD will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you." Jer. 26:19 - "‘Did Hezekiah king of Judah or anyone else in Judah put him to death? Did not Hezekiah fear the LORD and seek his favor? And did not the LORD relent, so that he did not bring the disaster he pronounced against them? We are about to bring a terrible disaster on ourselves!" Joel 2:13 - "Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity." Amos 7:3 - "So the LORD relented. 'This will not happen,' the LORD said." Amos 7:6 - "So the LORD relented. 'This will not happen either,' the Sovereign LORD said." John 3:9 - "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish." John 4:2 - "He prayed to the LORD, 'O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." Any theological statements we devise, must deal with these very clear statements of fact. Where we differ on this is that I see two kinds of plans of God. One which is unconditional and one which is conditional. The unconditionals plans are layed out from eternity and nothing we do or say can change them. However, there are also conditional plans which are impacted by our choices. These are the kinds of plans reflected in the verses above. God said He would do one thing. The people responded by repenting. God then relented in respose to their repentence. But, we can't simply take these statements and say that they don't really mean that God relented. :-) Or, do you believe that God lied when He said that He was going to destroy Niveveh in 40 days? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102163 | ||
Dear Tim, We have a problem for Num 23:19 says "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? The solution must be found in harmonizing the above with Amos 7:6 and the other verses which you listed which show God as reversing Himself. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to climb up on brother Packer's shoulders again. "It is true that there is a group of texts... which speak of God as repenting. The reference in each cas is to a revesal of God's treatment of a particular people, consequent on their reaction to that treatment. But there is no suggestionthat this reaction was not forseen, or that it took God by surprise and was not provided for in His eternal plan. No chnge in His eternal purpose is implied whe He begins to deal with a person in a new way." To my mind Packers explanation is far superior than the idea that God has a host of contingency plans (No offense to you Tim). Does Packer have the right approach? It would solve our dis-harmony problem. John |
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8 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 102174 | ||
John I don't know how Tim feels but I feel fairly comfortable riding Packer's shoulder with you on this quote. EdB |
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9 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102178 | ||
Dear Ed, Ps 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation. Counsel also means design or plan. John |
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10 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 102196 | ||
John I agree God's never changes but we do and how God handles that without having His plan change is what makes Him God. EdB |
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11 | Is God subject to change? | Bible general Archive 2 | John Reformed | 102270 | ||
I agree Ed, John |
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