Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 75303 | ||
Greetings Sisterkath! When you mentioned the New English Translation, I am assuming that you were quoting a footnote from it on John 1:1. The quote? said: "John's thrology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in John's use of the verb "worship" (proskunevw, praskunew) with Jesus as object in John 9:38, a word that elsewhere in John (4:21, 23,24) has only God the Father as its object. The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God; rather it equates the essence of the Word with that of GOD." I think that you mis-understood the point of the quote which you quoted. Your quote is making the point that Jesus is God, not a god. First of all, it says: "...that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father." How can Jesus be 'just as much God as God the Father' if He is not God Almighty? Is there another god who is equal to God Almighty? The Old Testament clearly teaches that there are no other gods. John 1:1 teaches a very powerful truth about Jesus, but it does so in a crescendo of statements. Rather than just coming out immediately and saying that Jesus is God, John builds his point with sucessive statements about the Word. He says: In the beginning was the Word. The reader is forced to consider the eternal nature of Jesus, that He did not come into existence in Mary's womb but has always existed since the beginning of creation. Then John says that in the beginning, the Word was WITH God. Now, the reader is forced to consider the special relationship which existed from all eternity between Jesus and God the Father. Finally, John say that in the beginning the Word was God. The Greek does not support 'a god', for two reasons. First of all, the text does not support such a reading grammatically. Secondly, to say that there is another 'god' is a direct contradiction of Scripture for Is. 43:10 says, "??You are my witnesses,? declares the LORD, ??and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." Note the irony that the self proclaimed witnesses of Jehovah expressly teach what Jehovah Himself said was not true - that there are other gods besides Him. But, to continue with your quote, the New English Translation footnote makes an accurate point when it says, "The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God; rather it equates the essence of the Word with that of GOD." The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there are three distinct Persons in the Godhead. The Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit. But, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the One God Jehovah. This is what the New English Translation is referring to in the footnote which you quoted. Finally, the New English Translation backs up it's affirmation that Jesus is God by pointing out that Jesus is mentioned throughout Gospel of John as being the object of worship. In short, the quote you quoted actually argues the exact opposite of what you intended. As my brother Hank pointed out to you, the NWT and all the other translations cannot both be right. Either Jesus is God or He is a god. You must decide which one is true. While you are doing that, consider this question. How, based on Is. 43:10, can Jesus be 'a god' if there are no other gods besides Jehovah? The answer should be obvious my friend. The JW's have mislead you with a false teaching, as can be proven on just the basis of Is. 43:10. Jehovah God said that there were no other gods, yet the self proclaimed Jehovah's Witnesses would tell you that Jesus was another god. Who is telling you the true? God in Is. 43:10 or the NWT? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | sisterkath | 75711 | ||
Tim, Sorry it took me so long to return. You are right I misquoted. But, getting back to "a god." 1808 "and the word was a god" The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London. 1864 "and a god was the Word" The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London. 1935 "and the Word was divine" The Bible--An American Translation, by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed, Chicago. 1950 "and the Word was a god" New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn. 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind)was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Gottingen, Germany. 1978 "and godlike sort was the Logos" Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin. 1979 "and a god was the Logos" Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jurgen Becker, Wurzburg, Germany. These translations use such words as "a god," "divine" or "godlike" because the Greek word Jeoc (theos) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous the-os'. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression o Jeoc, that is the-os preceded by the definite article ho. This is an articular the-os. Careful translators recognize that the articular construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone. Therefore, John's statement that the Word or Logos was "a god" or "divine" or "godlike" does not mean that he was the God with whom he was. It merely expresses a certain quality about the Word, or Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God himself. |
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3 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 75756 | ||
Greetings Sisterkath! Thanks for the response my friend! Now, on to John 1:1. I have had several years of college level training in Koine Greek. I have also had about 12 years of experience in actually translating the Greek New Testament. Why do I mention this? Simply this, I know from both training and experience that the arguments used by the JW?s concerning John 1:1 are a mixture of truth and lie designed to hide the fact that John says that Jesus is God. There is significance to the fact that ?theos? does not have a definite article. But, the significance is not that ?theos? thus becomes an adjective. Allow me to demonstrate a number of times in the New Testament where ?theos? is used without an article, yet remains a noun. 1) Lk. 20:38 says, ?He is not the God of the dead??. Yet, ?theos? has no definite article. 2) Rom. 8:33 says, ??It is God who justifies?. Yet, ?theos? has no definite article. 3) 1 Cor. 8:4 says, ??that there is no God but one?. Yet, ?theos? has no definite article. 4) 2 Cor. 1:21 says, ??and God anointed us?. Yet, ?theos? has no definite article. 5) Others include: 2 Cor. 5:5, 2 Cor. 5:19, Gal. 6:7, Eph. 4:6, Phil. 2:13, 1 Thess. 2:5, 2 Thess. 2:16, 1 Tim. 2:5, and Rev. 21:7. These are just the examples where ?theos? is in the nominative case. There are other examples involving other cases. Now, check out your NWT and see if any of these verses translates the anarthrous ?theos? as ?divine? or ?a god?. The significance of the anarthrous ?theos? in John 1:1 is very simple. If both ?theos? and ?logos? had the definite article, John 1:1 would be saying that the ?logos? and ?theos? were the same person. Yet, John has already said in John 1:1 that the ?logos? was with God. The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, or that the Father is the same Person as the Holy Spirit. What it does teach is that Jesus is fully God. The Father is fully God. And, the Holy Spirit is fully God. There are three distinct Persons, but only one God. This is why John does not use the definite article before ?theos? in John 1:1. Jesus is not the Father, but Jesus is fully God. Now, assuming for the moment that the JW?s are correct about their translation (which I reject), then Jesus is another God. Yet, in Is. 43:10, Jehovah Himself says that there are no other gods before Him, nor after Him. There are also other verses in Scripture which teach that there is only ONE God. Rom. 8:30 ? ?since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.? 1 Tim. 2:5 ? ?For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,? Eph. 4:6 ? ?one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.? So, the JW?s translation of John 1:1 in their NWT directly contradicts these Scriptures by teaching there are in fact at least two Gods. Which is true? Is there only One God, or are there more than one Gods? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | sisterkath | 76184 | ||
Hi Tim, It is good to see someone with so much education. I have no former education, but do like to research into the Bible. You asked; "Is there only One God, or are there more than one gods? Reply: Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it. A person can even let his belly be a god. Ro 16:18 Php3:18,19. There are many gods that are mentioned in the Bible. Ps 86:8 1Co 8:5,6 it shows that the gods of the nation are valueless gods. Ps 96:5 Among the Hebrew words that are translated God is El, probably meaning Mighty One, Strong One. Ge 14:18. It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men. It is used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha, meaning Gjod is Salvation and Michael Who Is Like God. In some places El appears with the definite article ha El literally, the god, with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods. Ge 46:3 2Sa 22:31 At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called El Gibbohr, Mighty God, not El Shaddai, God Almighty, which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1 In the following eight places ha elo him refers to other gods. Ex 18:11 22:20 De 10:17 Jg 10:14 2Ch 2:5 Ps 86:8 136:2 Jer 11:12. |
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5 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 76185 | ||
Greetings Sisterkath! Did you get this response from a JW web site? The wording seems very familiar! I checked all of the verses in your post. None of them say that there actually ARE other gods. Men may call an idol a 'god', but it isn't. Men may worship their stomachs, but they are not 'gods'. Is. 43:10 is very specific. Jehovah says that there are no 'gods' formed before Him or after Him. In all of your post, you never once dealt with what Jehovah Himself said. If there are no other gods, then Jesus cannot be 'a god'. He must be God, Jehovah in the flesh. Who are you going to believe my friend, Jehovah Himself or the so-called Jehovah's Witnesses? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | sisterkath | 76200 | ||
Tim, Actual facts, right out of NWT. Jesus is the Son of God, not GOD Jehovah. Jesus himself says he is the Son of GOD. Why should I believe any different? And we know what the Son of God means. In the Old Testament, certain men and angels are called, sons of God. At the center of Jesus identity in the Fouth Gospel is his divine sonship. John 10:36. Which now brings us to a different subject. Did Jesus have a heavenly existence before he became man? Yes, he most certainly did. He is the first-born of all creation, all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things. But Jesus is not his Father Jehovah. This is what I believe and what the Bible tells me. |
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7 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 76204 | ||
Greetings Sisterkath! I notice that you keeping avoiding answering the question about Is. 43:10. The NWT says in John 1:1 that Jesus is 'a god'. Yet, Is. 43:10 says that there are no other gods. So, which is true? Because Jehovah's Witnesses are so set on avoiding the Biblical teaching that Jesus is God in the flesh, they have mistranslated John 1:1. But, in doing so, they have created a false doctrine which says that there is more than one God. Is. 43:10 is a clear statement. There isn't anything unclear about it. There isn't any controversy about it. It simply says that there are not any other gods. Jehovah is the only God. Now, John 1:1 says that Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus must be Jehovah. Just out of curiosity, how does the NWT translate Is. 43:10? I also found it interesting the Is. 43:11 also says that there is no other savior. Yet, consider the following verses where Jesus is called our savior. Luke 2:11 - "Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord." John 4:42 - "They said to the woman, ??We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.?" Acts 5:31 - "God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel." There are more, but especially Titus 2:13 where we are informed that Jesus is both God and Savior. "while we wait for the blessed hope?the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," We can discuss later the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. But, the first step is to confront the fact that the NWT is teaching a false doctrine in John 1:1. Jesus cannot be another god in addition to Jehovah because Jehovah Himself said in Is. 43:10 that there are no other gods besides Him. So, my simple question to you my friend is this: Did He or did He not say in Is. 43:10 that there is no other god besides Him? If He did, then how can Jesus be another god? I ask you to prayerfully consider this for yourself. Don't go to a JW and ask them to explain it away. Just read Is. 43:10 and read John 1:1 in the NWT and ask yourself, "How can both be true?". They can't! This is a perfect example of why I am opposed to the NWT. It is not really a translation at all. It is a cult's attempt to make Scripture say what it wants it to say. Yet, in doing so, they contradict other clear Scriptures. Please consider this carefully! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | sisterkath | 76272 | ||
Hi Tim, Did he or did he not say in Is 43:10, that there is no other god besides him? If he did then how can Jesus be another god? Reply: Tim, there are many gods. But there is only One True GOD, Jehovah. Why wouldn't Jesus be a god? Isn't Satan the god of this world? At Isaiah 43:10. YOU are my witnesses, is the utterance of Jehovah, even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. Servant, the anointed God, El Or, and after me there came or, will come, to be none. NWT You are saying that Jesus is GOD ALMIGHTY. Maybe you can answer some of my questions. At Isaiah 53:10 it says, Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him, he hath put him to grief. Bruise WHO? HIMSELF? John 1:38 refers to the arm of Jehovah, at Is 53:1, here along with Is 40:10, we have the arm of Jehovah as being the messiah and differenitated from his Father. Jesus can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing, John 5:19. As the Father GIVES him knowledge and Revelation, Rev 1:1. But Jesus was even then limited in the knowledge given to him, But of that day or hour KNOWETH NO ONE, not even the angels of heaven, neither the son, but the Father only. Matt 24:36, Mark 13:32 If Jesus was one third of God, and the Father was another third of God, how is it possible that Jesus was ignorant of what another part of his Godhead was doing? If Jesus was simply ignorant in his human nature, then how can he, according to you, see John 20:28, be Almighty God in his human nature at the same time? How can he, according to the creeds, be fully God and fully man at the same time and still not know anymore than the angels? Is it perhaps that he was NOT God, but a representative of God who was simply given the power of agency? Does Matt 28:18 and Hebrews 1:3 say that Jesus is, all powerfull? And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, ALL authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Matt 28:18. Jesus is GIVEN all authory. Someone who is, all powerful, does not need to be given anything, who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purifications of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. If the Scripture is indeed saying that Jesus is, all powerful, it is interesting that he only gets to sit on God's right hand, instead of in his stead. The angels sit at God's right hand, 1 Kings 22:19, 2Chron 18:18, and it is often a position of favor, 1 Kings 2:19, Ps 45:9, for royalty, but not one that is the ultimate power. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, NIV. Then the end will come, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reigh until he has putt all his enemies under his feet. The lastenemy is death. For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Is Jesus handing over the Kingdom to himself? |
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9 | Is the first resurrection, the rapture? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 76338 | ||
Greetings Sisterkath! Allow me to respond to your post in two ways. In my second post, I will address your questions with a basic explanation of the Trinity. In my first post, I will continue to challenge you to consider the implications of Is. 43:10. The reason I continue to pursue this issue is very simple. A correct understanding of the identity of Jesus is essential to one's salvation. Jesus Himself said in John 8:24, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." The Greek of this verse literally says, "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins". I know that the JW's try to hide the fact that in John 8:58 Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM" or Jehovah. They try to use the arguement that Jesus is referring to a time before Abraham, so grammatically, one must translate John 8:58 as 'I have been'. This is not true, but either way, there is no such issue involved in John 8:24. It is very clear that Jesus is calling Himself Jehovah, the I AM of Exodus. So, if the JW's convince you that Jesus is in fact not Jehovah, then according to John 8:24, you are still lost. So, I urge you again to read 1 Chron. 17:20, 2 Chron. 6:14, Is. 43:10, Is. 44:6-8, Is. 45:21-22, Is. 46:9, and Joel 2:27. These verse all affirm that there is no 'God' besides Jehovah. Now listen carefully my friend. I know that your inclination is to defend what the JW's have taught you, but read these verses carefully. They do not say that there are other lesser Gods. They do not say that there other Gods, but just not as powerful as Jehovah. They all say that there are NO GODS BESIDES JEHOVAH. To teach that Jesus is 'a god' is a direct violation of what Jehovah Himself has said over and over again. These verses are not vague, nor are they hard to understand. They are only a problem because you have bought into a false doctrine. You must believe that Jesus is the "I AM" in order to be saved. So, please, consider these verses carefully. These verse alone should be enough to expose the lie of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But, if you need more, consider Jesus in light of Is. 40:25, "To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal? says the Holy One." If the JW's are right, and Jesus is a lesser god, how come He is described as equal to God, when Jehovah Himself says that He has no equals? John 5:18 - " For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." Phil. 2:6 - "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," If you can't accept the clear statements of Scripture that there are no others gods besides Jehovah, then you will never be able to accept the salvation that is found only in Jesus. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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