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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Been to every church? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 39679 | ||
Greeting Raven! Where exactly does the 1 Cor. 13 say that the Bible is the "that which is perfect" referred to in 1 Cor. 13? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Been to every church? | Bible general Archive 1 | RAVEN | 39718 | ||
Hello Tim, We have had discussions before and I have enjoyed them. I would like to say that 1 Cor. 13 does not say "the bible" is the "that which is perfect". But as you know this discussion is about speaking in toungues, and I think you would have to agree that this chapter says they will cease. It also says that prophecies will fail and knowledge will vanish away. But Paul who wrote this also said "And though I have the "gift of prophecy," and "understand all mysteries" and all knowledge,". Paul as well as the other apostles had these gifts and were able if they so choose to give these gifts to others in order to spread the gospel. But as we all will do some day they died. And if you read I am sure that you will find no place in the bible where provisions where made to allow these gifts to continue. Instead it says they will end. So what do we have to bring us to God? His word. We have the perfect complete inspired word of God in the bible. Interestingly enough Paul says in the book of Ephesians that when we read we can understand. Read what? The bible! The dispute is weather or not there are people who can speak in toungues. And the answer the bible gives is no. Unlike those people we read about in the bible who did not have the completed word, today we do and this how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, and thats the only way. Ephesians 3 The Mystery Revealed The Gentiles Are Fellow Heirs 1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles-- 2if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4BY WHICH, WHEN YOU READ, YOU MAY UNDERSTAND MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. So if its not talking about the bible being "that which is perfect" then what do you think its talking about? Your friend in Christ, Raven |
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3 | Been to every church? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 39722 | ||
Greetings Raven! Thanks for the response my friend! I am glad that we are both able to find mutal enjoyement from our discussions. Allow me to summarize the points I hear you making! 1) The gifts will cease. 2) The apostles had the gifts. 3) The apostles could pass on the gifts to others. 4) The Bible can bring us to God. 5) The Bible is the only way the Holy Spirit speaks to us. 6) The Bible says that people today cannot speak in tongues. I may have missed some, but allow me to touch upon these. 1) There is no doubt that the gifts will cease. The Bible says so! However, when this will occur is not explained in any great detail. The indication is given however that this will not occur until full knowledge is obtained. I would say that the best guess (since it is not stated) would be sometime after Christ returns, probably the New Heaven and New Earth - where there will no longer be a need for the gifts. 2) The apostles had gifts, but we are never told that each one had all of them. 3) We are never told that the apostles could distribute the Gifts of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 12 says that God does this as He wills. 4) I agree that the Bible can bring us to God. 5) I would disagree that the Bible is the only way that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. It is the only authoritative way, but He also speaks through: a) Circumstances, b) Our conscience, c) Other people, d) Preaching and teaching, e) ect... 6) This one leads us back to the original question. The Bible says that tongues will cease. But, it does not say when. So, how can you say that the Bible says that there are not people today who can speak in tongues? You also said that there were no provision for the continuation of tongues, but isn't that what 1 Cor. 14 is all about? Paul gives detailed instructions about how tongues should be used in a worship service. I like your Eph. 3:4 reference. To what is Paul referring? Either a previous letter or to Eph. 1, where he writes about the mystery of God. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Been to every church? | Bible general Archive 1 | RAVEN | 39804 | ||
Hey Tim, You wrote, 1) There is no doubt that the gifts will cease. The Bible says so! However, when this will occur is not explained in any great detail. The indication is given however that this will not occur until full knowledge is obtained. I would say that the best guess (since it is not stated) would be sometime after Christ returns, probably the New Heaven and New Earth - where there will no longer be a need for the gifts. What scripture do you base your assumption on? And why do you think gifts are needed today? If a sign is needed for us to believe, then we have to say that the bible is not needed or is flawed in some way and that the Holy Spirit could not accomplish all that He says the bible is. Please read, Romans 16 Benediction 25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26but now made manifest, and by the PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, FOR THE OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH-- 27to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen. 2 Timothy 3 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, WHICH ARE ABLE to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE, THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK. You wrote, 3) We are never told that the apostles could distribute the Gifts of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 12 says that God does this as He wills. It was Gods will that they should give the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who believed and were baptised in the name of Jesus Christ so the Gospel would spread. Please read, Mark 16 The Great Commission (4) 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18they[2] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Acts 13:2-12 Acts 19 6And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. You wrote, 5) I would disagree that the Bible is the only way that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. It is the only authoritative way, but He also speaks through: a) Circumstances, b) Our conscience, c) Other people, d) Preaching and teaching, e) ect... I can see that you might believe that the Holy Spirit might speak to us through the things you have listed. But a,b,c would have to do with if we have read the scriptures so we would understand what we are feeling and hearing. But "d", preaching and teaching is a way that the Holy Spirit communicates with us but not through the words of man but from the word in the bible. 2 Peter 1 21for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[1] SPOKE as they WERE MOVED by the Holy Spirit. Notice the words "spoke" and "were moved". They are past tense. No were can you find a present or future tense when concerning the word of God. For we know, Romans 10 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If there are those who can speak in toungues and have gifts from God then why do they not make themselves known to the rest of the world so that we may all know of the mysterys of God? Your friend in Christ, Roy Lindsey |
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5 | Been to every church? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 39834 | ||
Greetings Roy! Thanks for the response my friend! Let me take each comment, point by point! 1) The difference between our positions of this point is that I freely admit my position is an assumption. 1 Cor. 13 say that gifts will cease, but it never says when. Some believe that the phrase "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the time when the gifts will cease. However, even this is an assumption. Scripture simply doesn't say! The passages which you list in support of your position never even mention tongues, or any spiritual gift. Therefore, they cannot have any bearing on when spiritual gifts end! 3) Notice that none of these verses say that the apostles had he authority or the abibility to distribute spiritual gifts. In fact, Acts 19:6 specifically says that the gift of tongues came as a result of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. 6) This is an interesting point! However, I think you have applied it incorrectly. When someone speaks of the spoken or written Word of God, it is always referred to in the past tense, since it had already been written or spoken. :-) If 2 Peter 1:21 meant what you are saying, then 2 neither Peter, nor any Scripture written after it, could be considered Scripture, since they were written subsequent to the "speaking" and "moving" spoken of in 2 Peter 1:21. By the way, I didn't make it clear before that I agree with you that people do not have to speak in tongues to be saved. I just disagree with your belief that tongues have already ceased. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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