Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Lionstrong | 30719 | ||
Matt 20:15 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' Tim, to make this illustration appropriate to this thread I would set it up this way instead: If the Keeper did not offer his water freely to some who passed by, would he be just? My answer is yes, he would still be just, because that's what a gift is. A gift is given at the discretion of the giver not because of anything with respect to the recipient. Peace, Lionstrong |
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2 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31424 | ||
How does this fit with the teachings of Jesus? Are we as Christians told to be servants of believers only, or servants? Was the Samaritan wrong for helping someone who was not a Samaritan? Would he not have been better off passing the other by and only offering his gift to another Samaritan? Why should we go into all nations and not just to those nations who are more open to recieve the gift? Why should we try to rerach and baptize all nations instead of only a few select ones more open to the gift? Are we to love each other as Jesus loved us? Or are we to only love those we choose to love and its ok to hate and condemn the others as you say Jesus did by not offering any chance of avoiding eternal torment in the river of fire? When somone knocks and asks for a loaf of bread, should we give him a stone and only give the loaf to some of those whom we choose to give our gift? I'm sorry, maybe its my limited mind, but I cannot comprehend Calling God just, in any way, if He randomly chooses the majority of people and refuses them His grace and intern condemns them to hell. If Jesus paid the price, justice is served. If God offers his forgivness to everyone justice is served even if some refuse it. If God chose me over someone else to recieve His forgivness and chose that person to suffer in Hell, then that is not justice, that is not love, and it is not mercy. It is favoritism (a sin) to me and the ultimate cruelty (a sin) to the other person because it was not that person, but God who refused to love and forgive that sinner. If Jesus paid the price for us and offered it to everyone who would believe, He is loving and that love is perfect. If He paid the price that would cover everyone, but went down the list saying "You I choose to save, but you can burn in Hell" then He is cruel and what love He has is not perfect, but highly selective. That is just not the loving, perfect, loving God I know and worship. That is a hateful, mean tyrant. How can you be loving and merciful and choose that the majority of your creation will suffer torment for ever and ever? I cannot believe that. I hope this thread will be short, because honestly, I am closed minded on this. I just had to voice my extreme confusion on even the thought of this concept. I will not believe in a God that would be this cruel. |
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3 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Reformer Joe | 31428 | ||
I don't understand why you posted those first three paragraphs of questions. Nowhere did Lionstrong suggest that we should withhold the proclamation of the gospel. Secondly, you wrote: "I cannot comprehend Calling God just, in any way, if He randomly chooses the majority of people and refuses them His grace and intern condemns them to hell." A couple of biblical points: 1. It is precisely because God is just that sinful people are condemned to hell. It would be unjust not to punish sin. Those who go to hell deserve to be there, just as you and I deserve to be there. Make no mistake: there is not a single thing within us that makes us worthy of anything else but God's eternal wrath and just condemnation. 2. Just because God does not publish the list of the elect does not mean that His choices are "random." You wrote: "If Jesus paid the price, justice is served." Absolutely. So it would be unjust for God to send anyone to hell if Jesus has paid for the sins of all. But we clearly see that many are going there. Is God unjust to send people to hell for sins that His Son has already atoned for? Or, perhaps, maybe Jesus didn't die for the sins of every single human being. You wrote: "If God chose me over someone else to recieve His forgivness and chose that person to suffer in Hell, then that is not justice, that is not love, and it is not mercy." Wrong. God showed love and mercy toward you. God executed justice on Christ instead of you. "That is just not the loving, perfect, loving God I know and worship. That is a hateful, mean tyrant. How can you be loving and merciful and choose that the majority of your creation will suffer torment for ever and ever?" I would highly recommend that you be careful with your wording. If you worship a God that is different than the one revealed in Scripture, that makes you an idolator. If you call the God that is revealed in Scripture a hateful, evil tyrant, that makes you a blasphemer. You have not quoted one shred of Scripture, and yet you declare yourself to be "closed-minded" on the issue. God sending sinners to hell is not cruelty; it is justice (and it is something that we all originally chose -- Ephesians 2:3). God saving me and others is mercy. Please show me Scripture which says that God MUST be merciful to all, or even passages that teach that He IS merciful to all. No one is ENTITLED to mercy, and it is wrong for you to insist that God must give it to any of his wicked, depraved creatures, much less to all of them. --Joe! |
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4 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31525 | ||
I mention the questions to point out that Jesus never once held back or instructed us to. While here, He gave to all and instructed us to do the same. Yet when it comes to salvation, you suggest He didnt do this. It doesn't fit. I never said any of us do not deserve hell, we all do. But if He chose me to gt Heaven, that is merciful to me. ut that means He also specifically looked at someone else and said "I will never forgive you and you will burn in Hell because I refuse to give you my love. I will make it so you can never come to me so I can be justified in condeming you to eternal torment because it is my will and desire that you spend eternity in the river of fire." And you better believe, if God chose me and not another person, thet IS a VERY good reason to boast. Throw your spin out here and tell me why its not. But sorry, it aint going to work. You say "perhaps, maybe Jesus didn't die for the sins of every single human being". Yet the Bible says He died for the sins of the world. Seems pretty inclusive to me. Please show me where Jesus' death did not cover all sins. No "perhaps" or "maybe". God may show love and mercy to me. But in your model, He by His choice alone, refuses it to the vast majority of His creation. Then He says to love each other as He loved us. So then, really, I only have to love a few peple. I can hate and condemn the rest, right? I was very careful of my wording. I worship the God in the Bible. God IS love (1John4:8). God does not show partiality (Deu 10:17), od shows loving kindness to ALL who call UPON HIM (Ps86:5), God doesn't love some, but the world (john3:16), He is not willing that even one shall be lost (Mat18:14). None of these fit with a God who refuses His love and grace to the lost. God saving some is merciful. But there are two heads to every coin. God refusing His love and mercy to others based soely on His decision alone, thus condemining them to eternal torment, is NOT loving or merciful. Bless...ArtS P.S. I am sorry I did not provide the scripture verses in the last post. I thought the things I was referring to were trecognizeable enough without them to realize they were scripture. |
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5 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Reformer Joe | 31527 | ||
Art: These questions, along with the verses you mentioned, have been addressed at length on the forum, so I will not re-hash them here again. Type in the words "Christ" and "elect" in the Quick Search box if you want to examine the biblical arguments against your position. I will address one comment that you have made, however, simply because it makes no sense at all to me: "And you better believe, if God chose me and not another person, thet IS a VERY good reason to boast. Throw your spin out here and tell me why its not. But sorry, it aint going to work." We would only have a good reason to boast if we had EARNED such a position of privilege. Nowhere did I say that I deserved to be saved more than anyone else. Let's put it another way that clearly demonstrates how your view, if true, gives you reason to boast: Why did you receive Christ when so many others who are equally or more evangelized did not? Was it because you are more humble? Or wiser? Or more intelligent? Or more obedient to God? What is it in you, all other things being equal (as you claim) that motivated YOU to become a Christian when someone else did not? In other words, what are you boasting in? Why did God save me? Instead of spin, let's look at Scripture. "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, ACCORDING TO THE KIND INTENTION OF HIS WILL" --Ephesians 1:4 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL" --Ephesians 1:11 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." --Romans 9:16 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" --Titus 3:5 Yeah, a lot there for me to boast about myself... --Joe! P.S. I really couldn't care less if it "works for you" or not. My purpose is to glorify God as he has revealed himself in Scripture, and my Bible includes Romans 9 and John 6:37 ff. and Ephesians 1 and Titus 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:3-5 and Matthew 13. If you choose to impose your view that God MUST show equal mercy to all (which is ridiculous to anyone who looks around the world today and sees that all do not receive God's mercy equally even in this life), then that is your business. As you have already said, you are too "closed-minded" (read: unteachable) to even honestly weigh the arguments against your view. |
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6 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31533 | ||
I wouldn't be boasting about anything I did, but in the simple fact that God chose me and not them. That's even a better boast. Because if I was bragging about me or something I did or had control over, the other person could simply do it to. But to say God chose me above them? The favoritism God sowed towards me is a HUGE reason to boast!!! "God chose me and not you! I go to heaven and you rot in hell!" "Not fair! How do I get Him to choose me?" "You can't! Ha ha!" "but I don't want to suffer eternal torment" "Too bad, God didn't want you!" Instead, having the offer of salvation available to all eliminates any chance of this. This gift becomes available to al. I can no longer boast this. Jesus paid the price for them as well. God chose them and showed no favoritism to me. That same conversation would be "God has chosen all who believe, and since I do, I'm going to heavn, since you don't, you're not." "Not fair! How do I get Him to choose me?" "You have to believe in His Son Jesus" "I don't want to suffer eternal torment" "Then accept His free gift" I loose my ability to brag because the gift is theirs as well. Not one of those verses does what you hope. Once you understand God didn't choose YOU but He chose those who would accept His Son, you understand how all those verses can actually be fully satisfied and still allow the rest of scripture to be true without spinning what is written. Bless...ArtS |
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7 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Reformer Joe | 31536 | ||
Art: You really need to study the Reformed position if you are going to criticize it. Your inane "imaginary conversation" does not reflect the views of Reformed theology in the slightest, and you apparently are not even reading the words I am writing. Mini-lesson: Unconditional election. The doctrine of Reformed theology which holds that God chose some to salvation based solely on the counsel of His will (read: not anything in me). It is only these who will receive Christ; all others will reject Him. The scenario of someone "wanting to become a Christian" and God rejecting them is not Reformed theology. Those whom God does not regenerate do not WANT to embrace Christ. You did not want anything to do with the Christ of the Bible until God supernaturally changed the disposition of your heart. God enlightened your mind and persuaded you to embrace Him, regardless of the fact that you were a vile, sinful enemy of God, living a life of total unrighteousness. And that is why you have no room to boast. However, I did note that you did not answer my question. What made YOU choose Christ when others have not? And you still hang on to this idea that God owes anyone anything. God's perfect justice being carried out on us would mean that we would be in hell at this very moment. That is justice. Hell. Do you really want to be the recipient of God's justice, Art? Your view of justice simply does not match up with God's holy justice. Mercy and justice are not the same thing, and that is where you need to get your thinking straightened out. --Joe! |
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