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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Morant61 | 30546 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! We haven't chatted for awhile! :-) I hope you had a great Christmas! From my perspective, the answer to your question is this: The atonement is sufficent for all sins, but efficent only for those who believe. There seem to be only four options: 1) Christ paid for the sins of none! 2) Christ paid for the sins of all! 3) Christ paid for the sins of only those whom He chooses! 4) Christ paid for the sins of only those who believe! Your argument seems to be based upon option number 2, which is not what most Arminians would say unlimited atonement means. Number 2 would be universalism! I know we see this issue differently, but your concern doesn't really apply to Arminianism. The gift must be received. If it isn't, the sinner simply continues on his un-merry way to hell. So, they aren't paying "again", they simply never accepted the payment to begin with! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Reformer Joe | 30650 | ||
Tim: I like the four options. We both disagree with 1 and 2. We both agree on 4. It is 3 which serves as the point of disagreement for us. And, of course, we still have the problem in your "not accepting the payment" scenario. We still have Christ dying for the sins of an unbeliever, and the unbeliever paying for his own sins as well. Your scenario makes Christ an actual Savior of none unless we "help out" the process by "making it happen." I simply cannot accept the "Jesus-as-possible-Savior" scenario as being in keeping with Scripture. --Joe! |
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3 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Morant61 | 30664 | ||
Greetings Joe! I hope you had a great Christmas my friend! I realize that illustrations are weak vessels with which to explain spiritual truths, but maybe this one will explain my understanding. Salvation is a gift. Let's say that I buy my son a gift. I go to great trouble and expense to purchase this gift. I box it. I wrap it. I put his name on it. However, until he actually accepts the gift, he never receives any benefit from it. I see salvation in the same way. I don't see Jesus as a possible Savior. I see Him as the Savior of the whole world. But, we must accept the gift or we don't receive the benefits. There are verses which would support this view. John 1:12 - "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—" Rom. 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 6:1 - "As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain." Gal. 3:14 - "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Heb. 9:15 - "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." All of these verses use an active voice for the verb 'receive'. I think John 1:12 and Rom. 5:17 make the strongest case. Based on John 1:12, I would say that "receiving" is equivalent to "faith". Thus, the gift of grace is something which must be accepted by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). To go back to my "weak" illustration, suppose that my son refused my gift. Does that negate the price that I paid? Does that mean that there really isn't a gift? Of course not! So, salvation is an accomplished fact, whether we accept it or reject it. But, our faith response determines whether or not we get to enjoy the benefits of the gift. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Reformer Joe | 30672 | ||
Tim: My Christmas was quite good, thank you! The verses you cited support both an Arminian and a Calvinist perspective. When I became a Christian, I actively received the free gift of salvation and pardon through Christ Jesus. The Reformed-minded individual has no problem with the active voice here. Your post does bring up an interesting problem I have with the Arminian view. If the gift is there for all and we just have to receive it, it provides a completely different paradigm between the two views. Calvinists view the person as "lost unless Christ died for him"; many Arminians take a view very similar to the statement "you are saved unless you reject it." Which reflects the spirit of Scripture? --Joe! |
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5 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Morant61 | 30678 | ||
Greetings Joe! As you know from our previous discussions, I believe in an unlimited atonement. So, my take would be this: I would say that original sin (indeed all sin) was atoned for at the Cross. But, I also believe that we are born depraved. We aren't culpable however until we actively disobey (Rom. 7:9). Every person will do this unless they die as a young child. Then, we must accept the gift of salvation. So, I don't think I would use the phrase "saved unless you rejected it". I would probably say "all have been atoned for", but salvation is the application of that atonement which only takes place after faith. Make sense? :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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