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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129449 | ||
Hi Hank and Karen, Here is some additional information. I hope this helps to clarify my position. Luke 13:3 “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Repent – This is some information from Robertson's NT Word Pictures: Except ye repent (ean me metanoete). Present active subjunctive of metanoeo, to change mind and conduct, linear action, keep on changing. Condition of third class, undetermined, but with prospect of determination. A key element is that this is active. When Jesus says “except you repent”, this is something I have to do. If I do not do it, I will likewise perish. “except ye” – this is a condition which I must meet. This topic was more fully explored starting with posts 128949 and 128921. Please read my posts carefully. I have never retracted my understanding that there is a part that we play in being “saved”. If there are places that seem as if I did, I apologize. This is a complicated subject to discuss clearly. As I understand the Bible, unless “I” repent, “I” will not be saved. The fact is, we are discussing predestination vs. freewill, except with different vocabulary. I am perfectly happy to discuss any Bible subject, I have no taboo subjects, because God gave it all to us for our edification. I think changing our vocabulary can be useful to avoid the established “hot buttons”, although we will still come to the same conclusions ultimately. The Bible makes plain statements, such as the one above about repentance, which I believe must be plainly received, and plainly acted upon. I am aware of other statements such as “none come but the Father draw them”, and “you have not chosen Me, I have chosen you”. The Bible clearly teaches both predestination and freewill, and it seems to teach both without restriction. God’s choice is sovereign, and man’s repentance is required. How do I express this truth? I don’t know, except to teach both. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | Hiskid84 | 129459 | ||
Greetings, Mark. :) Thank you for clarifying your statements. Please forgive me for coming to a wrong conclusion from your posts with BradK. I stand corrected! (And please accept this post as my response to your request that I read 129449) I think we are probably in more agreement than appears on the surface. I definitely agree that this is a sensitive subject and we walk a fine line in keeping with board rules. I completely agree with your statement, "God’s choice is sovereign, and man’s repentance is required." Scripture does clearly teach both. Where people begin to part company seems to be in the order it takes place, which becomes an issue of ability. On the one side, it is believed that we are not capable (being spiritually dead) of recognizing our sin, and hence, our need for a Savior. Therefore, God must do a work in us (regeneration) and the repenting and believing naturally follow. This is how we are able to say that salvation is all of God and yet it is we who do the repenting and believing. Scripture seems to bear that out because we read in Eph.2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." It would seem that God has established His plan of salvation in such a way that He gets all of the glory for it. We are only able to do (repent and believe) what God enables us to do. On the other hand, some believe that we, through the hearing of the Word and conviction of the Holy Spirit, are able to see our sinfulness and our need of forgiveness. When we acknowledge these things before God, He responds and saves us. That would seem to be in line with the first statement except that in this scenario we are able, of our own ability (apart from God), to recognize that we are spiritually dead and in need of spiritual life. That puts the ball in our court first. Does Scripture back this up? It would seem to with verses that command us to repent and/or believe in order to be saved (Acts 16:30-31 or as you pointed out above, Luke 13:3). The doctrine of election is most definitely a difficult one to grasp and I'm certain that no one person has ever had it exactly right (being fallible humans with only the tiniest understanding of the things of God). I would like to say that one reason this doctrine is dear to those who embrace it is because it acknowledges a truly sovereign God. It's difficult to see Him being sovereign in a scenario where He is waiting and hoping that we will make the right choice. Wouldn't that make Him dependant upon man? (If not, in what way wouldn't it?) I'm going to stop (and hope I am not in trouble for this post). I do appreciate your honesty and your earnest search for truth. May God richly bless you in your endeavors! I pray that we all come to the Scriptures with a true desire to learn and the humility needed to do so. When you have time, would you please share your definition of "sovereign" with me? In the meantime, I'm going to give myself the assignment of defining what it means to me. :) In His love, Karen |
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3 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129462 | ||
Hi Karen, Thank you for responding. I think you sum up the issue well. I think we are in basic agreement, and that our primary focus is on the Lord. Nothing I ever do will ever take away from all that He has done. Amazing Grace!!!!! Regardless of what part I may or may not play in my salvation, as Paul says in Romans, “I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing,” and certainly, before regeneration, all I have is my flesh. God calls, and I respond with the ability to respond that He gives me. The best I can come up with is that I supply the tiniest little consent to what He wants to do. I especially love Ephesians 1 for what it says about this. “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” God wants a family, and our amazing gift is to be a part of His family. 9 ”according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;” “Him Who works all things after the counsel of His will.” Everything happens because it serves God’s purpose, and He alone chooses His purpose. This is what “sovereign” means to me. God does what He wants to. “It would seem that God has established His plan of salvation in such a way that He gets all of the glory for it. We are only able to do (repent and believe) what God enables us to do” – I think you put this very well, and I completely agree. Jesus said in Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!” This sounds as if there were something that God wanted but that He did not have. Titus 2:11-12 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” This leads me to thing that God has convicted all people of their sin, but only some respond. For us that are saved, the hearing of the word was mixed with faith. (Heb. 4:2) It is not mixed with faith in those that hear His word but not to salvation. Anyway, this is how it works with me as I study this. I go around and around and around. . . Let us rejoice that our names are written in heaven! Love in Christ, Mark |
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