Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | mark d seyler | 172484 | ||
Hi Doc, We are agreed on the meaning of regeneration, as refering to that moment when God creates a new being that did not exist before, created according to righteousness and true holiness. (assuming you agree with my expanded definition!) But I must also agree with what Tim wrote, that none of the Scripture references you offered show this "order of salvation". My problem with it is that this order would of necessity mean that God regenerates unrepentant sinners. That thought seems to me to be in conflict with a number of Scriptures. Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, In this passage, "receiving" Jesus, (said verb being in the active voice - done by those who are numbered in the "all" - "to all who...") comes before being given the right to become children of God (the right to be "regenerated"). The ones who are given the right to become children of God are those who received Him, not, for instance, those who "were made children of God". This verse does not say "those who were made children of God were given the right to become children of God." So I have a fundamental conflict with this. Another Scripture that comes to mind is: 2 Cor 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. Paul does not in this passage say "... a repentance that SHOWS salvation..." Here, repentance leads to salvation. Is there any other way of thinking of second-birth, regeneration, as anything other than salvation itself? So if regeneration is that moment in time when the new creature is created, how can that precede repentance? To take a quote from Packer: "Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith," He places regeneration before belief. I cannot reconcile that statement to the words of Scripture, such as Act 16:30-31 "Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Again, this does not say, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you HAVE BEEN saved", it says "And you will be saved" Unless Packer is using the word "regeneration" in another way, not refering to the moment of creation of the new creature, this does not reconcile with Scripture. If Packer is using this as some would say, (if my understanding of these things is correct) Previent Grace, then I could accept this. And again it is written, Act 3:19, "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out," not "repent, therfore, and turn again, BECAUSE your sins HAVE BEEN blotted out." How do you reconcile your belief with these verses? Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | hobbs | 172499 | ||
Hi Mark, Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Now..if we read this verse in isolation, we logically may conclude that regeneration occurs upon the faith of the unregenerate hearer of the gospel message. But, when we compare it with other verses, questions arise. Faith by deinition is a spiritual gift. We are not born with it. Like all good gifts it comes from above. James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. Is there any evidence in the bible that wouldlead us tp presume that the carnal (ie natural; fleshy) man possesess this gift? No! All evidence is to the contrary. Dead in trespasses and sin; mind is enmity to things of God; unable to recieve or believe spiritual things...etc. I'm on a lunch break, but will look for your reply. God Bless, John |
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3 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | mark d seyler | 172503 | ||
Hi John, I agree with you 100 percent, faith is a gift from God: Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, This is clearly stated in Scripture. Now, does Scripture tell us that only the regenerate can be given faith? Let me ask you a different question. Were Old Testament Saints "born-again"? Did the Holy Spirit indwell, and create a new creation, in the saints during the Old Testament times? I would answer this No. Would you answer yes? Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Unless Abraham was regenerated, born from above, before that time Paul writes of, he believed God, to the degree that it was reckoned to him as righteousness, without the benefit of regeneration. Still a gift from God, but a different gift than rebirth. What do you think? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | Morant61 | 172506 | ||
Greetings Mark! I've been agreeing with you so much that I thought it was time to disagree a bit. ;-) Eph. 2:8 actually doesn't say that faith is a gift, but that 'it' is a gift. 'Faith' and 'grace' are both feminine nouns, while the pronoun 'it' is neuter. Therefore, neither 'faith' or 'grace' can be the antecedent for 'it'. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | mark d seyler | 172508 | ||
... Ok ... get ready ... here comes that learning curve again! Wow! I had no idea! So what is the antecedant, do you know? Love in Christ, Mark :-) |
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6 | Are we presenting the gospel scripturaly | John 1:12 | Morant61 | 172519 | ||
Greetings Mark! There is a lot of speculation, but most would probably say that 'it' refers to the whole process of salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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