Bible Question:
Looking for thoughts on this Scripture: Romans 9 1 I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![1] Amen. 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Your thoughts? Curt |
Bible Answer: Hi Curt, Fancy meeting you here. I guess we can focus our discussion on 9:11-18. Obviously this passage is true. One view is that even though God's "choice" in v. 11,17 happened before Esau and Pharaoh, it was based on God's divine foreknowledge (he knew what they would do and therefore chose on that basis). This seems an attractive position, but it would make it hard to explain v. 15-16, and 18. So you know where I am coming from, I go with the 4-point Calvinist view, as defined below. Total Depravity - Man is dead in sin, with every aspect of his being affected by the fall, unable to save himself. (Romans 3:10ff) Unconditional Election - God's choice is not based on anything man has done, but on Himself, alone. (queue Romans 9:15-16,18) Unlimited Atonement - here's where I differ from the "true Calvinists" and I cite verses like 1 John 2:2, speaking of Christ as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Irresistible Grace - Luke 14:23, John 6:44. "compel" them to come in. "nobody comes to me unless he is drawn by My Father" Perseverance of the Saints or Eternal Security - Philippians 1:6 - He who began a work will perfect it until the day of Christ. Romans 8:28-39 - As far as God is concerned, even our glorification is assured, and that hasn't happened yet. (I view "glorified" as being proleptic (basically defined above). This is probably more than you are looking for, but it gives any number of springboards. In Him, Ben |