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NASB | John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 8:24 "That is why I told you that you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One [I claim to be], you will die in your sins." [Ex 3:14; Matt 24:5; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8] |
Bible Question (short): One thread? |
Question (full): Hey Tim, The verses you gave me where the verb is translated as "I am" is not the same exact verb used in Exodus 3:14. The verb in these verses is ha-yi-ti (sorry, I'm not good with putting "accents" on my letters). It seems to me you have slowly gone from a position of Jesus definitely claiming the divine title of Yahweh to him just "alluding to it". So I think you definitely understand my position that participles and Titles don't mix. My God is an all-powerful God and if He wanted me to believe that Jesus was claiming the divine name of God then the Septuagint would read, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM (ego eimi) has sent me to you'". Instead the LXX reads, "He who is/the being (HO ON) has sent me to you". Or I would be convinced if John 8:58 read, "before Abraham was born, He who is/The being (HO ON). Tim, exact words are included in titles and titles are specific. Our president of the United States is not called president in some states and master in others. My all-powerful God would not allow there to be any question or controversy concerning a verse that deals with salvation (John 8:24). Especially if this is the only verse in the whole New Testament that supposedly makes it a requirement to believe Jesus is Yahweh. So I made my argument concerning this and I don't think there is much you can say to convince me otherwise unless you find the Septuagint Servetus is talking about that has "ego eimi" in the place of "ho on". Now let's look at the circumstantial evidence. You say Jesus is "alluding" to the Divine Title and my circumstiantial evidence is verse 25 when the Jews ask Him "Who are you?" This sure doesn't sound like Jesus is claiming the Divine Title because this would be a stupid question. Jesus obviously told them who He was by claiming the Title of Yahweh. Now let's look at your circumstantial evidence. You say the reaction of the Jewish leaders points to Jesus "alluding" to the Divine Title. You're using the word "alluding" so we can't say for sure he is claiming to be Yahweh but because the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy this seals the deal. But couldn't the Jews be stoning Him for claiming He is the Son of God. Take a look at John 19:7. The context of John chapter 8 is Jesus "alluding" to being the Son of God (8:16,18,19,28,38,40,42,49,54). Also, why did the Jews ask Him 2 chapters later, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly (John 10:24)". Why would they be asking this? Didn't Jesus claim He was Yahweh in 8:58? And Tim, don't you find it suspicious that the charge against Jesus at his Trial was that He was the Son of God and not the One True God incarnate? I also find it interesting that Iranaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by John interpreted John 8:58 to just mean that Jesus existed before Abraham (ccel.org fragment LII). He said nothing that Jesus was claiming the Divine Title of Yahweh. And Tim, why did the council of Nicea last two months. Shouldn't the debate over Jesus' deity have lasted 2 minutes. Athanasius would have pointed to John 8:58 and said, "Debate is over"! I find it extremely interesting reading through the early church fathers (before 325 A.D.)on ccel.org that I find no evidence that Jesus claimed the Divine Name of Yahweh. I gave you a couple of things to think about. Hey Tim, it seems like our posts are overlapping into the same subject. You can respond to both of mine that I gave you but then would you like to just have one thread? God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving! Andy |