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NASB | Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." [2 Cor 12:4; Rev 2:7] |
Subject: why was the thief saved without baptism? |
Bible Note: Tim, it may be clear to you that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but not to me. (You haven’t said which is the “one” baptism in Ephesians 4.) I believe salvation is accomplished by the HS, but at the time of water baptism. I’ve posted before, there’s nothing in the water that saves except an obedient believer. I expect you will agree, the text of Acts 10/11 doesn’t say Cornelius was saved prior to water baptism. And, Acts 11:17-18 substantiates that the conversion of Corneluis was, indeed, a special circumstance. That Peter even went into the house of a Gentile was pretty special. The text gives reasons for that baptism of the HS. Salvation is not one of them. Other texts put salvation at the point one is buried with Christ in [water] baptism. [See more in my separate posts about the conversion of Cornelius.] For the reasons following I disagree with you concerning whether or not men are totally depraved at birth. (You say, all men are born sinners.) The scriptures you use seem to support your interpretation (Psalm 51, Romans 5, and others I’m sure, such as Romans 7:21-23), but I have to reconcile them with the following clear teachings from God’s word. Taken as a whole, scripture calls for a conclusion that men become sinners when they sin; they are not born sinners. What little I know about the marked difference in Western thought and Easter thought has been a great aid to understanding scripture, and I hope to learn more about that. The latter is more figurative. Psalm 51:5 is literally translated, “Behold in iniquity I was born and in sin my mother conceived me,” which can lend to the idea that David was born into an evil and sinful world. Indeed, all of us are, and cannot escape succumbing to the temptations Satan puts in our way. As it is written, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Rom 3:23) The Word does teach that man becomes depraved and lost because of the sin he commits/practices, and he can do nothing on his own to reconcile himself to God. And, it follows that man is saved by God’s grace alone, as you say. But, that doesn’t negate the fact that man has a part to play in the plan of salvation. When he believes, he must obey. Check it out, my friends. Salvation IS conditional. It was for the Jews; it is for us. God has always required obedience. As an added consideration, I call to attention that the term “reconciliation” assumes there has been a “conciliation” Looking at the words in Genesis 8:21 “…although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth…”, I ask: isn’t this saying a man’s heart is not evil before he becomes a youth? And, Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” This text speaks for itself. Looking at Romans 9:11, “….children not having done any good or evil.” Seems pretty self-explanatory. Matt 19:14. “But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” It stretches my imagination to think Jesus would say that, if the children were totally depraved. I believe the children were (are) pure and sinless, as Christians become, through the blood of Christ, when they enter the Kingdom. (Col 1:13). All said, Luke 8:15 is really the only verse I need to tell me that man is not born totally depraved and is able to personally respond to God’s word in a righteous way. There are good and honest hearts for the word of God to be planted in. The text: “But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble [honest] and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.” Thanks for discussing our differences with me, Tim. I expect we have others besides these two, but studying together is a step in the right direction. Both of us know about Paul’s admonition that there be no divisions among us, that we should think the same thing and speak the same thing. I also guess we both know that would happen only if we stick strictly to the text – nothing added – nothing deleted – no doctrines and commandments of men. Striving to please Him. J. Elkins |