Results 21 - 40 of 678
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | What was Jesus doing in the earth 3 days | Matthew | gracefull | 94750 | ||
'Answer: 'Moreover, in her 1991 booklet, [Joyce] Meyer asserts that salvation is impossible without believing Jesus suffered in hell as the believer’s substitute. Meyer writes, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.” If one believes Jesus died in their place, one either believes His death on the cross was all there was to the atonement and that after that He was in 'Paradise' waiting for the resurrection, OR that Jesus paid the full price of the sinner by becoming a sinner by taking on the sins of mankind. This seems to be the main starting point of division...There seems to be the idea that Jesus becoming a sinner on the cross in our place is original to WOF teachers. I would like to offer the following information to prove that Jesus becoming a sinner on the cross in our place is NOT an anti 'orthodox theology'. FYI This teaching did not originate with WOF. And I doubt it originated here...but it goes back at least to the 16th Century. Martin Luther 'Commentary on Galatians (Grand Rapids, MI Kregal Publications), edited by John Price Fallowes, M.A. Galatians 3:13-14 "And this, no doubt, all the prophets did forsee in spirit, that Christ should be accounted the greatest transgressor that could be, having all the sins imputed to Him. For He being made a sacrifice for sin, yea for the sins of the whole world, is not now the Son of God born of the virgin Mary, but a sinner who hathand carrieth the sin of Paul, who was a blasphemer and a persecutor; of Peter who denied Him; of David who was an adulterer and a murderer; and briefly, who hath and beareth all the sins of all men in His body;not that He is Himself guilty of any, but that He received them, being committed or done by us, and laid uponHis body, that He might make satisfaction for them with Hisown blood(Isa.53:5) Martin Luther goes on to say; "But some men will say, it is absurd and slanderous to call the Son of God a cursed sinner. I answer, if thou be wilt deny Him to be a sinner and accursed, deny also that He was crucified and dead. For it is no less absurd to say that the Son of God (as our faith professesth and believeth) was crucified and suffered the pains of sin and death, than to say that He is a sinner and accursed. But if it be not absurd to confess and believe that Christ was crucified between two thieves, then it is absurd to say also that He was accursed, and of all sinners the greatest." Martin Luther indicates here that he believes Jesus became 'a sinner' upon the cross...and that unless one acknowledges this, one should also deny that He was crucified and dead. My English grammer interprets this as 'If you deny He became a sinner you must also deny that He was crucified. The two are inseperable.' And he taught this in the 16th Century. Now this does not state that Jesus went to Hell, but it clearly states that Martin Luther believed Jesus literaly became accursed for us. He goes so far as to call Him the 'of all sinners the greatest.' As I stated in another post some time back, he also interpreted scripture to say God turned from God. He pronounced it a great mystery...but none the less acknowledged it. This was long before WOF teachers started teaching it, and my guess is Martin Luther would be considered an Orthodox theologian.. Jesus did not just die physically for our sins..but BECAME SIN for us. To believe this is scriptural, is only a very small step to believing Jesus went to Hell. God bless |
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22 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94724 | ||
"Isn't that the definition of a cult, a group that claims superior knowledge, revelation or understanding over the rest of Christiandom?" Maybe, I do not specialize in 'cult hunting'. My statement does not claim superior knowledge to the rest of Christiandom. I claim the right to believe SCRIPTURE as revealed by the Holy Spirit ABOVE the established 'orthodox theology'. Please notice I did not SAY what you SAID that WOF claims superior knowledge.... I SAID, " "The problem IS, you can't prove your position because you can't listen without emotions and attitude getting in the way,". Did I say I have superior knowledge? No, I said "attitude and emotions are getting in the way of your(Darcy and you Ed) being able to PRESENT a clear explanation to the contray..." Did I say the position I took was CORRECT and yours was INCORRECT? No, I said you can't present a clear POSITION TO THE CONTRARY. And that WOF believers study opposing views without fear, thus the term Bereans. In plain English, the previous restricted thread ended with me presenting a position for discussion and both you and Darcy exiting abruptly behind your 'theological position'. This does not produce a good Bible study atmosphere for GROWTH. If you truly believe WOF is so terribly bad, you should work harder at proving it wrong scripturally. Your posts of animosity against the teaching and teachers and sarcasm does nothing but gender strife and create an insecure environment for study. What student is going to ask hard questions when they FEAR ridicule and rejection? I hope the other members of the forum get the courage to discourge sternly such behaviour in the future. Otherwise people who really need guidance will not remain here. Only the easy ones who are agreeable will remain. Knowledge of the person and will of God is readily available to ALL Christians in personal relationship with God. Please read my EXIT statement for a better understanding of this statement. God bless |
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23 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94633 | ||
"As goes for a Bible study on this issue it is impossible because the Hell doctrine isn't in the bible nor doesn't it even remotely hints at it. How can we have a biblical discussion when it is not in the Holy Bible. And the Book of Copeland is not found in there uncluding his revelation he got when messagers visited Him." The problem IS, you can't prove your position because you can't listen without emotions and attitude getting in the way, and your attitude prevents you from being able to present a clear Biblical explanation to the contrary... And they CAN...We are not fearful to hear but rather trust the Holy Spirit to lead us. WOF are excellent Bereans because they value the Word of God above theology and church doctrines. God bless |
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24 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94629 | ||
Hi Darcy, I must admit I have no inclination to finish reading your post beyond your statement... "You claim that you were being stalked. Odviously you did not read mine. Ed was 'stalking'. "All any of us were doing was going against the hell doctrine that WOF leaders use." Then where was the Biblical discussion to the apologetic I posted? As I asked Ed, if your heart is to reach these poor misled souls and you can't even respond in a Christian manner to the teaching how can you help them? Your expectations that anyone is going to listen to ridicule and opinions such as the one you stated here, which totally ignores what Psalm 22 actually says by the way, and claims that their beliefs are simply unorthodox. WOF people are extremely scripture bound and your opinions and brash comments will not phase them. To them you are simply a Pharasee protecting your doctrines. Maybe you are convinced your posts disproved something scripturally, but to a WOF believer you have shot out a few scriptures then resorted to personal attacks to make your case. Apparently proving how much you hate WOF teaching is more important to you (You as in several of you) than actually having a Christian Bible study with the presence of patience and mutual respect as human beings and as children of God. The apologetic I posted may not have convinced anyone, but your responses sure did not convince anyone otherwise. Your responses were, in essence...I don't believe that, I believe this and your belief is heresy..maybe you could be convinced by that argument but WOF believers will not be. I perceive that there is a lot of fear on this forum against the teachings. Otherwise you folks would not have so much trouble discussing them.. By the way, I noticed the same response to anyone whose beliefs do not conform. I suggest you guys will get a lot more out of the forum if you actually get involved in the studies without all the opinions and animosity. Even if you are right you will find your faith in your beliefs strengthened by the challenge. I will not be posting to the forum for awhile. I may still read to observe if anyone here actually LEARNED anything about how a Bible study should actually be conducted. Or if you will harden your hearts and not hear... God bless |
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25 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94594 | ||
"When faced with overwhelming evidence that the position you support is non scriptural you repeatedly ignore it and keep voicing it." Then you said...Both Radioman2 and I have repeatedly posted rebuttals providing scripture showing you where this teaching is heresy and you ignore and post a three part lesson on Hades that contained the points we had already discussed and did not support your position Biblically at all." ACTUALLY as soon as I did post a scriptural apologetic discussing my position, after repeated requests from you I might add, the thread was restricted and you refused to discuss it. Let's look at the event just prior to the thread being restricted... When I left you and began answering other's who had questions or responses you pursued me... Actually, the foundation calls it 'stalking'. You posted this to my post to someone else... So why are you going out in this direction or are you trying to deflect the standing questions?? You have been asked to take the posted comments of Copeland's and biblically show them to be correct. Or you are asked to admit Copleand has taught heresy. EdB Then you posted this to a post to someone else... graceful Then you posted this to a post I directed to someon else... Once again it does not say Jesus was tortured by Satan EdB To which I responded with the three part apologetic which seemed to be a good basis for an intellegent Biblical discussion...What happened? At which time I posted the apologetics for your comments…(In response to your ‘stalking’ which IS actually discouraged by the Foundation). Now Ed, was it my insistence to defend WOF that prompted the apologetic?..No. It was your persistent challenge to produce some scriptural basis for the teaching of Jesus suffering in Hell. You don’t see a problem with this? No one sees a problem with this? Because of the hardness of your hearts. You demand a scriptural discussion and then refuse to actually have a scriptural discussion. Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. I submit that regardless of whether my position is correct or not, you refuse to hear. Ed, your heart is hardened and that makes you unteachable and bitter. God bless |
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26 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94588 | ||
Thank you Jeff.. God bless |
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27 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94587 | ||
Makarios, Thank you for your response. "Any post on this form that puts our Lord's name in the same sentence with "emanicipated wormy spirit" is not a worthy post to be added to this Forum's literature, and it has justly been dealt with." I only have one problem with your statement.... This was not my post. This was not the topic of the thread. The actual post that posted this quote was NOT banned. If you look at my post that seemingly prompted the 'abuse' charge..The post was an apologetic DISCUSSING the topic of Jesus descending to Hell, and not the post radioman2 posted regarding statements made by Kenneth Copeland. Ed asked me to address the question of whether Jesus 'suffered in Hell' or not. I did not post the quotes by specific WOF teachers. But rather continually requested a scriptural discussion of the topic at hand. Did you read MY post that prompted the 'abuse' charge? Was the offending statement in any of my posts? No. "Any post on this form that puts our Lord's name in the same sentence with "emanicipated wormy spirit" is not a worthy post to be added to this Forum's literature, and it has justly been dealt with." Then MY posts should not have been the one banned... God bless |
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28 | What constitutes 'abuse' on the forum? | Acts 17:11 | gracefull | 94499 | ||
It has come to my attention that threads are restricted when a forum member 'reports abuse'. I would like all forum members to clarify the term abuse. In the thread 93133 several MEMBER CONDUCT rules were violated BEFORE my post. Then after much proding, I posted a portion of an apologetic that offered scriptural interpretation and commentaries from men of different affiliations, for discussion and someone THEN decided to declare 'abuse'.Please remember that disagreement does not constitute divisive... Did my posts constitute abuse? Posting a paper for discussion that is scripturally based though in disagreement with the commonly accepted theology? Isn't this forum a Bible Study forum? This thread was suddenly considered 'abuse' because... 1. You were affraid of the challenge. 2. You feel that if you do not agree you have the right to 'pass judgement'. I wonder what would happen to the forum if everytime someone posted something someone else did not agree with, abuse was reported? The forum would become a 'dead sea' and die. Is that what the rest of the forum members want? I would like very much for other forum members to respond to this post and voice their opinion..should a forum member be allowed to 'report abuse' simply because their beliefs differ or because they do not like the discussion? God bless Ps the thread # was 93133 and my posts were # 94397, 94403, and 94404 for any who may not have been involved in the discussion. If you check out my post and find that it does not have adequate scripture for a forum discussion or is written in a divisive manner, let me know. Remember, disagreement does not constitute divisive. If it did, the forum should shut it's doors now. God bless |
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29 | Sola Scriptura-A False teaching | 2 Tim 3:16 | gracefull | 94494 | ||
Once upon a time...surely you don't really believe this stuff? This is what fairy tales are made of! Excellent Berean statement! Is there no love to prompt you to reach out? Acts 17:10-12 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. 1.What prompts us to ridicule and mock the belief of others? It is NOT Godly love. Jesus died for those we mock. 2.Does our mocking promote trust among those we need to teach? 3.Are we mocking what they believe and not them? No...we cannot. Our beliefs are what make us who we are. They are what gives us a sense of purpose. 4.Does mocking the beliefs of others solidify our own beliefs? No, sharing and revisiting our beliefs and the source of our beliefs so as not to let them slip solidifies our beliefs and also leaves us open for correction and teachable. Considering these points, I see no valid reason for such a disgraceful response to someone God may have led to this forum for guidance or maybe even, God forbid, to teach US something. Matthew 7:12 12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. God bless |
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30 | Part 3 | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94483 | ||
"Notice also this thread is now restricted. I suspect someone other than me got tired of your WOF rhetoric and complained." I noticed..I alos noticed you refused to actually DISCUSS the points made in the apologetic. You and Darcy both simply said..my position stands. How can you win these poor souls caught up in the WOF cult if you cannot discuss BIBLICALLY what they believe from their point of view? You expect them to just say, "Oh, you disagree and you are 'orthodox' so I must be wrong". It is interesting that one can quote from the New World Translation..Jehovah's Witness 'Bible'. And any other cultish doctrine for discussion but the minute I posted a scriptural argument for BIBLICAL consideration...they restricted the thread...What are they AFFRAID OF? This IS a Bible study forum is it not? Then why can't we posts discussions of different topics? I know why, so don't bother to answer. It is the same reason why our denominations are so divided.. someone challenges their 'theology' and they RUN! This does not convince me I am wrong...as a matte of fact it tells me I hit too close to home! God bless |
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31 | Apologetic..Did Jesus Suffer in Hell? | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94480 | ||
Did you read this apologetic? If so, I must conclude that you disagree with it. And based on the lack of observation and comparisons, you have no desire to discuss it. God bless |
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32 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94406 | ||
Darcy, I just posted a protion of a very good apologetic on the topic. It is much more indepth than I could be. Now whether Satan was directly involved in Jesus' suffering is speculation, however Jesus did come forth with the keys to death, Hell and the grave...And we know by this that Jesus was victorious over Satan who is the prince of darknes, ruler of the demonic community. I do not believe it is fairytale thinking to believe Satan was present when Jesus descended, and no doubt thought he had won. But this is speculation as far as I know. I would have to read Brother Copeland's entire message to know what scriptures he was drawing his ideas from. But as for Jesus suffering in Hell, this apologetic has ample scripture for consideration. I am signing out for the today, God bless |
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33 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94396 | ||
Indeed, Adam and Eve HAD died that day. Genesis 3:5-7 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. They saw themselves as sinners. They were now under the curse. The animal sacrifice could not restore that relationship. Only Jesus would do that. God bless |
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34 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94359 | ||
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared Me: They were sacrificed in faith looking forward to the true sacrifice, Jesus. God bless |
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35 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94354 | ||
In Genesis 2:16-17 God pronounced the judgement for sin. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." You are correct, Satan only lies to us...we believe the lies and sin. But the point was that God pronounced the judgement for sin upon mankind. He did not 'retract' it for Jesus. If Jesus paid for OUR sins, what price did He pay? God bless |
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36 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94347 | ||
"The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) Jesus died on the cross." The wages of sin was not mere physical death. When the sinners dies physically he does not cease to exist. God bless |
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37 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94335 | ||
The will of the Father...which was...? John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Who offered Jesus? One minute you say Satan did not have authority over Jesus, and now you debate His act of yielding? Which was it? Jesus voluntarily took OUR sins and paid OUR price. God bless |
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38 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94324 | ||
"Who set the price for sin? God of course and what was that price.? Death! Not being tortured in Hades by Satan." So where would the sinner go? God bless |
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39 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94321 | ||
Surely, Just look for Radioman2's post. God bless |
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40 | A FALSE TEACHING? Yes / No | Matt 8:5 | gracefull | 94320 | ||
You said, Why look for truth in a false doctrine? I'm sure it may contain some but why look? If is looks like a duck, quakes like a duck, swims like a duck, eats like a duck why not call it a duck why try to find out if it might be a pig? And why again do you throw the problem back to me? Why can't you admit you were mislead? Your are right Ed, You are so openminded and I am so closed minded... God bless |
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