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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | mark d seyler | 154492 | ||
Javelin, I would disagree with your statement that using the Bible to prove God's existance is circular reasoning. The Bible in fact does prove God's existance, and His nature. Consider: Isa 41:21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Isa 41:22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: The only One that can declare from the beginning the things that shall be in the future is the One Who is outside of this continuum, and the One Who can see from the beginning to the end of time. He challanges other who would claim to be gods, or who claim to "know" to do the same. None can. God wants us to know Him, and proves Himself to us, conclusively. Any study of the prophetic passages of Scripture will quickly reveal that God is Who He says He is, because only God can do this. He who seeks, finds. Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Any who come to Jesus will not be cast out, He receives us all. If you truly want to know God, He will reveal Himself to you. If you want to make excuses about why you don't want to lay down your life, and quit sinning, you will live your life with the "certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | javelin | 154500 | ||
Thanks Mark for your feedback. I don't think you quite understood my position. Circular reasoning or begging the question, is the practice of assuming something, in order to prove the very thing that you assumed. One assumes that proposition A is true, and then uses proposition A (directly or indirectly) to prove that proposition A is true. It is "The fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that itself needs to be proven." ex. 'The Bible is infallible - this bible verse says so!' The reason I say that is because I've done hundreds of debates with atheists who do not believe in God and therefore certainly not the bible or vice versa. If you try to prove God exists based on a book that a person does not believe is from God, you get nowhere real fast and make a fool of yourself on the journey. Your arguments become circular reasonings. You must first prove that the bible does in fact contain many statements that could not have been written by any human. This is far more difficult to do these days than you appear to believe. You must prove it was in fact, communicated to men by God. Of course it can be done but is extremely difficult and time consuming. There are a 1000 sites out there claiming the bible is a book of myths, legends and some history with a ton of flaws and contradictions. So trying to prove God's existence from the bible, to them, is a joke. In fact most of the arguments used by atheists these days were given to them by evil and phoney supposed chritians! With a thing called "higher criticism" - they've done their worst to demolish the bible's authenticity and they have turned millions away from it. If you are not familiar with "higher crticism", "form criticism" etc., you won't believe what you're up against - it all sounds so reasonable but is nothing more than subtle, concocted sophisms meant to lead men away from the bible and God. You say,"The only One that can declare from the beginning the things that shall be in the future is the One..." But you base this on a verse in the bible - a book that your antagonist does not believe in - which you say is from God. So this is circular - you say only the God of the bible can do this, but the 'this' in question is from a book your opponent doesn't believe in!! Can you see that? You say, "Any study of the prophetic passages of Scripture will quickly reveal that God is Who He says He is, because only God can do this." But an unbeliever may respond, "Those passages are not prophetic at all as they were proven to have been written after the events in question" What would you answer? Exactly! You would be up for a long search for proof that these verses were indeed written before the events they describe. You would also find it long and hard doing so! Yes you can do it, but it's too much for a mere forum and what if the antagonist does not believe your references? See what I mean? Saying, "God exists because the bible says so" is useless to anyone who doesn't believe in God and therefore not in the bible! ;-) |
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3 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | mark d seyler | 154502 | ||
Javelin, I believe I understand what you are saying. you wrote: "But an unbeliever may respond, "Those passages are not prophetic at all as they were proven to have been written after the events in question" What would you answer? Exactly!" May I ask, exactly what? If in fact, you were to ask, and answer, as such, there remains a small problem. It would be hard to argue that the Bible was written in the last 100 years, and yet some of the prophetic fulfillments have occured in the last 100 years. The Septuagint is well substantiated as being complete prior to 250 BC, yet it prophesied much that was not fulfilled until later. If you wish to ignore these things, you will ignore whatever else you choose to. You can call the Bible false, yet if you don't accept that there is a nation called Israel, you are seriously deluded. If you choose to ignore that the Bible said there would be an Israel, you are willfully ingorant. I do not know of any way to debate or convince the wilfully ignorant. I am aware of the so-called "higher criticism", but there is a deeper problem that this covers up. Our relationship with God is a matter of the spirit, and of the heart. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. If the heart will not believe, there is nothing that the mind will accept. 1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Satan has disparaged the Word of God from the beginnning, and it's no different now. But it is not with the mind a man believes, its with the heart. And its not logical proofs we believe in, its Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. You can argue and debate with a man until the cows come home, but unless he wants to believe, he won't. I don't spend much time debating with the non-believer, once it becomes clear they just want a reason to not have to repent. Salvation results from preaching mixed with faith. I hope this clarifies more where I am coming from. Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | javelin | 154527 | ||
Just what exactly is your problem with my post Mark ? You speak as though I have somehow denigrated the word and am "deluded". You say, "It would be hard to argue that the Bible was written in the last 100 years, and yet some of the prophetic fulfillments have occured in the last 100 years." It would be ludicrous to argue this and the prophecies you refer to may be explained away by other things. It's all in the interpretation of it. "The Septuagint is well substantiated as being complete prior to 250 BC, yet it prophesied much that was not fulfilled until later." The Septuagint is the greek translation of the hebrew scriptures - why do you refer to this rather than the original hebrew text ? What is your point ? "If you wish to ignore these things, you will ignore whatever else you choose to. You can call the Bible false, yet if you don't accept that there is a nation called Israel, you are seriously deluded. If you choose to ignore that the Bible said there would be an Israel, you are willfully ingorant. I do not know of any way to debate or convince the wilfully ignorant." If you are speaking this to me then you are way off base, and if so I'll assume that you yourself are being wilfully ignorant. "I am aware of the so-called "higher criticism", but there is a deeper problem that this covers up. Our relationship with God is a matter of the spirit, and of the heart." No kidding. You see here you go again. Besides, our relationship with God starts in the reason. Or are you saying that faith is unreasonable and to know God exists etc. one must make the proverbial "leap in the dark" without logical foundations upon which to believe ? There is no need for leaps in the dark. God and the bible are totally reasonable and understandable. Sure it's "not with the mind a man believes" but you can't believe if you have no brains! You have to understand some basic facts 1st otherwise why does God say, "Come let us reason together" ? If there were no need for logical proofs then why did God give them ? Act 1:3 "...to whom He also presented Himself living after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" The whole bible can be viewed as God's testimony to man of His reasonableness and willingness to provide valid reasons for what He does. The book of Romans is largely an excercise in reason and logic. You are arguing with me for no reason, over things that you do not seem to fully understand yourself. You say, "You can argue and debate with a man until the cows come home, but unless he wants to believe, he won't." So ? What is the point ? Everyone knows this. However before you'll get a man to want to believe you have to show him the truth with logical proofs! Preaching would do nothing at all if what you preached were mere unproveable garbage. You can preach as you say til the cows come home and no one will listen unless what you say can be proven. Obviously you don't like what I said or you didn't understand it. The point is that logic is from God my friend, and reason is part of the image of God. Perhaps if you spent a little more time, with a lot more reason, speaking to the rebellious unbeliever they would end up seeing the truth. |
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5 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154536 | ||
Javelin, Just a question if I may... You said: "You can preach as you say til the cows come home and no one will listen unless what you say can be proven." Where does faith fit into your line of reasoning? Hebrews 11 1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]. 2For by [faith--trust and holy fervor born of faith] the men of old had divine testimony borne to them and obtained a good report. 3By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible. WOS |
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6 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | 2fedex | 154539 | ||
WOS. I believe that what javelin is elucidating is the 1st step on the road to belief in Christ and what you have eloquently pointed to is the step over the threshold to Salvation. It is a journey that can only be completed by Faith, but it is often paved with valid questions that can and should be answered.. God bless | ||||||
7 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154543 | ||
I agree there are valid questions that should be answered, but why the need rule out the use of Scripture? Javelin stated in post #154487: “Using the bible to prove God's existence is circular reasoning.” That would indicate that it is futile to use the Bible to prove God’s existence and I disagree with that. I don’t dissuade the use of extra-biblical material in answering valid questions so long as their sources are validated by the God-inspired scriptures. You seem to hold Paul’s epistles in high regard, so let us look at what Paul wrote concerning the subject. A look into 1 Corinthians 1 (vs 20-23 specifically) shows us that Paul, when preaching, in fact preached Christ crucified. 20Where is the wise man (the philosopher)? Where is the scribe (the scholar)? Where is the investigator (the logician, the debater) of this present time and age? Has not God shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world's wisdom? 21For when the world with all its earthly wisdom failed to perceive and recognize and know God by means of its own philosophy, God in His wisdom was pleased through the foolishness of preaching [salvation, procured by Christ and to be had through Him], to save those who believed (who clung to and trusted in and relied on Him). 22For while Jews [demandingly] ask for signs and miracles and Greeks pursue philosophy and wisdom, 23We preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, [preaching which] to the Jews is a scandal and an offensive stumbling block [that springs a snare or trap], and to the Gentiles it is absurd and utterly unphilosophical nonsense. Where in fact do we learn the truth about Christ’s crucifixion and what it means to us? That would be the Bible. Why did Paul in all his godly wisdom choose to preach this way? Matthew Henry explains it this way: “Paul had been bred up in Jewish learning; but the plain preaching of a crucified Jesus, was more powerful than all the oratory and philosophy of the heathen world. This is the sum and substance of the gospel. Christ crucified is the foundation of all our hopes, the fountain of all our joys. And by his death we live. The preaching of salvation for lost sinners by the sufferings and death of the Son of God, if explained and faithfully applied, appears foolishness to those in the way to destruction. The sensual, the covetous, the proud, and ambitious, alike see that the gospel opposes their favourite pursuits. But those who receive the gospel, and are enlightened by the Spirit of God, see more of God's wisdom and power in the doctrine of Christ crucified, than in all his other works. God left a great part of the world to follow the dictates of man's boasted reason, and the event has shown that human wisdom is folly, and is unable to find or retain the knowledge of God as the Creator. It pleased him, by the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe. By the foolishness of preaching; not by what could justly be called foolish preaching. But the thing preached was foolishness to wordly-wise men. The gospel ever was, and ever will be, foolishness to all in the road to destruction. The message of Christ, plainly delivered, ever has been a sure touchstone by which men may learn what road they are travelling. But the despised doctrine of salvation by faith in a crucified Saviour, God in human nature, purchasing the church with his own blood, to save multitudes, even all that believe, from ignorance, delusion, and vice, has been blessed in every age. And the weakest instruments God uses, are stronger in their effects, than the strongest men can use. Not that there is foolishness or weakness in God, but what men consider as such, overcomes all their admired wisdom and strength.” John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. When we witness, we need to witness Christ, who leads to God. Man has a funny way of making God become anything he wants Him to become, to satisfy his own mind. In pointing the lost to Christ, they’ll come to the Father in the way of proper understanding the way they need to. You must have faith in Christ to begin that journey. We have a true eyewitness account of our Lord given by the Gospels, the Bible. I also disagree that faith completes our journey to salvation. Our journey is complete when we are glorified with Christ when He returns. When that happens, I’ll no longer need faith, for then, I will see Him face to face. WOS |
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