Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 62038 | ||
Dear Tim, In you haste you misunderstood my point. I wrote "Tell me, why have the translators at nasb and every other translation I have looked at failed to indicate that their translations do not take into account those nuances of greek and hebrew of which you speak. You stated that the tense of the verbs in v. 45 indicated that God calls all men and in a earlier post you boldly stated: " Both of these participle phrases are active in voice, not passive. So, it is not those who have been taught, but those who listen who come to Jesus." My question was meant to elicit from you the reason no translation indicates such an interpretation. Of couse it is obvious that all of those who merly listen do not come to Christ. Please explain. John |
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2 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 62053 | ||
Greetings John! I'm afraid I am at a loss as to what it is that I supposed to explain! The verbs 'hear' and 'learn' are both Aorist, Active, Participles. While some translations choose to treat participles like plain Indicative verbs, every translation which I noted in my previous post does indeed translate these two verbs as Aorist Active verbs. So, they do take the voice of these verbs into account, since they translated them as active voice verbs. The only point I have attempted to make is that you were treating them as passive verbs, which they are not. This is not an exotic point of Greek grammar. The voice of verbs is 1st year material, so I fail to see how I was being bold in stating that they are active voice verbs. Finally, I never said that the tense of the verbs in John 6:45 indicates that God calls all men. The word 'call' never appears in this verse period, and the tense of a verb would have nothing to do with the extent of God's call anyway. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 62066 | ||
Dear Tim, The problem may be my relative ignorace of english language rules of tenses. I mentioned early on in our discussion, that my last class on the subject was almost 40 years ago. What puzzled and disturbed me was the conclusion, you say is reached as a result of a proper understaning of the verbs "heard and "learned". You conclusion was: "So, it is not those who have been taught, but those who listen who come to Jesus." This conclusion is what I don't understand. How can it be so? Brother John |
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4 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 62094 | ||
Greetings John! It hasn't quite been 40 years for me since my last English class, but it has been longer than I care to admit! :-) Allow me to try and break this down! The only word for 'taught' in John 6:45 is in the quotation from Is. 54:13. The quote doesn't actually use a verb for 'taught' but an 'adjective. However, it can be translate as - "All will be taught by God". This is a passive voice. All is the subect, while 'will be taught' is the verbal ideal. However, the subect is not doing the 'teaching', but receiving the 'teaching' which God does. Then, John begins a new clause which literally reads - "Everyone who has heard from the Father and who has learned comes to me." This clause is in the active voice. The one who 'has heard' and 'has learned' is both the subject and the one doing the action. It is these individuals who will come to Jesus. Now, to put it all together. All are taught by God according to the quote from Is. 54:13, but not all come to Jesus. Only those who actively heard and actively learned come. Those, like the Jewish leaders, who did not listen or learn, did not come. If John had meant to say that only those who are 'taught' come, he would have only had to use the passive voice of these two verbs. The passive voice would have totally changed the meaning of this clause. But, please note, that one does not need to know Greek to determine this because the English translations are also written in the active voice rather than the passive voice. Yet, when you loosely quoted the verse, you changed to verbs to passive voice - which made sense in your theological system, but changed what the verse actually says. Allow me to use an English example of the difference. Consider the following two sentences. 1) Everyone who crosses the finish line will receive a prize. 2) Everyone who is made to cross the finish line will receive a prize. It is difficult to duplicate the exact effect in English since we do not have different forms for the various voices. However, the above examples are roughly equivalent. If John 6:45 were meant as you were reading it, it would have been formed like example number two. However, it is actually formed like example number one. I hope this helped rather than further muddied the waters! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 62101 | ||
Dear Tim, Thank you for your patient instruction in english language usage. It must be rather tedious for you, to have to go over the same points time and time again. But, your note that signified your fellowship in prayer for all of us on the forum truly touched my heart. Please don't feel obliged to continue with me on this topic if you do not really want to. As some have noted, I am stubborn and will perservere until the issue is either resovled or it just withers away. But I don't consider it to be a sin to proclaim the truth of the Word as I see it. If I am right, it is because the Spirit of God has illumined me in that area. If I am wrong, pray that God will open my heart to recieve correction. The fact that I am of the Reformed faith is proof positive that I am not altogether intractable. I was a Catholic who became a theist who became a satanist back to Theisem who then came to Christ. First as a Nazarene, then as a Pentacostal and now I am a Reformed Presbyterian. Whew! God has changed my mind many times over my lifetime. And even the horrors of my pre-christian life God has used to draw me unto His Son. If you were to ask me why I chose to flee to Jesus for salvation; I could'nt say that it was anything within me . At the time the gospel was presented to me, I listened good humoredly to this man whom I had just recently met, and enjoyed our conversation immensely. But I was convinced that I did ALREADY have a relationship with God and was happy that he had one as well. We parted amicably and several hours later I asked Jesus to be my Lord and my God! I have oten reflected on this most important day in my life, and have wondered how it was that this could have occured. Was I better or smarter than the next man. No! Was my heart naturaly inclined to God. No, for to the natural man it's foolishness. The only answer that rings true to me is that it was a soverign work of grace alone. A gift of God that effected such a change in my heart, that 26 years later I am still following Him and by His grace alone, will hear Jesus say to me!!! "well done my good and faithful servant." The God centered theology of the reformers (and I would add the Apostles) provided my answer and now I see it on every page of the Bible. This may be the reason for returning to the same topic over and over again. I want God to get allllllll the glory! As for man....... just be grateful that He chose you. Your Brother in Christ, John Adams |
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6 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 62120 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for sharing some of your testimony! While Calvinists and Arminians may never agree on every point of theology, there is one thing that we both agree on - God is the author and source of salvation. I was thinking at work last night that it was God in the Garden who called, "Adam, where are you?", not Adam who called, "God, where are you?"! No matter how we codify our theology, if Christ did not die, if God did not draw, if the Spirit did not convict, none of us would be saved! I look forward to interacting with you again my brother and friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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