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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 61868 | ||
Pastor Glenn, The grumbling jews were not taught by the Holy Ghost, because Jesus said that those who are taught by God come to Him. The grumblers did not come. Therefore, they were not taught. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. All that the Father draws come to Jesus because they are the ones The Holy Ghost has taught! I know that it sounds like we are going aroun in a circle so let me try to put it in a straight line. Jesus is God. So God the Son is speaking to a crowd of people. Some understand that His words are life (Peter for one, and some others) and are taught. The majority do not understand and say instead "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?". They do not understand and so they have not been taught. Jesus then tells them that they cannot come to Him unless The Father draws them. The crowd, with a few exceptions turn away from Jesus and depart. Thereby proving that they were not drawn. All that are drawn are taught and all that are taught come to Jesus. John |
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2 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 61943 | ||
Greetings John! Good morning my friend! There is one problem with your exgesis of John 6:43-46. The verbs in 6:45 are active, not passive. The quote from Is. 54:13 does not include a verb, but uses what A. T. Robertson calls a "passive verbal adjective". So, that phrase can definitely be translated 'They will all be taught by God. However, the verse goes on to say that 'those who have listened' and 'those who have learned' are the ones who will come to Jesus. Both of these participle phrases are active in voice, not passive. So, it is not those who have been taught, but those who listen who come to Jesus. So, the departure of the grumblers does not prove that they were not drawn, but only that they did not listen! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 61983 | ||
Hello Tim, I must be missing something. So forgive me if I have totally misunderstood your reply. I do understand that there may have been a small technical difficulty in my exegesis, but I fail to see anything so drastic as to abrogate it altogether! Your point to me was: "So, it is not those who have been taught, but those who listen who come to Jesus." Excuse me! I ask you, does everyone who listens come to Christ? Of couse not! Forgive me for belaboring the obvious but one may listen and yet learn nothing. (I can vouch for that from personal experience.) Now I presume that you would agree the phrase "come to Christ" means to believe in Christ; For Jesus said those who are drawn by the Father are those which are raised on the last day. Correct? Merely listening to the gospel does not profit the one who has not learned from the gospel his need for Christ. Please tell friend Tim, is my exegesis really overturned ? Your Brother John |
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4 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 61996 | ||
Greetings John! Forgive me if I wasn't as clear as I should have been! It was late for me! :-) So, allow me to attempt this again. You said in your post: "All that are drawn are taught and all that are taught come to Jesus." The primary difficulty with this statement is that it has turned active voice verbs into passive voice verbs. John 6:45 says, "It is written in the Prophets: ?They will all be taught by God.? Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." The second verbal phrase is a quote from Is. 54:13. However, the Greek text does not actually include a verb at all. It has been translated as a passive, and I believe rightly so. However, note that this phrase says that 'all' will be taught by God. It does not limit it to only some. The third and fourth verbal phrases however do contain actual verbs, and they are both active in voice, not passive. This last clause literally reads: "All who have heard and have learned come to me." The active voice involves an act of will. These individuals have made an active decision to listen and to learn, after which they come to Jesus. If John had intended for this to be a passive meaning, he would have used the passive form, which would have read: "All who have heard (passive form)from the Father and have been taught (passive form) come to me." However, this isn't the form used. So, based upon my understanding of Greek, your exgesis is faulty because it turns active voices into passive voices. Thus, the meaning of John 6:45 is not that "all who are taught" come to Jesus, but that "all who listen or respond" to what "all" are taught by the Father will come to Jesus. The grumblers refused to listen, thus, they did not come. I hope this clarifies what I was attempting to say this morning my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 62019 | ||
Dear Tim, This is not a negative reflection on you, but I have been wrestling with your post for 2 hours trying to make heads and tails out of it. I have written and deleted a dozen times prior to this writting. Part of the problem is my last class on english grammer was in 1966. Tell me, why have the translators at nasb and every other translation I have looked at failed to indicate that their translations do not take into account those nuances of greek and hebrew of which you speak? I'm not saying that you are incorrect in your evaluation of the grammer, but, it would seem to me, that for such a stumbling block to go unmentioned or corrected is just not plausible. The way I read it Jesus (who is God) has been teaching the crowd. They reject him for two reasons. First because they see him as a mere man and second they doubt His truthfulness. Jesus hearing them rebukes them and then informs the grumblers why it is that they do not believe: No one (no one at all) can (is able) to come to me (be born again) unless the Father who sent me draws (drags) him. At this point, Jesus tells them that every "him" drawn by The Father is raised up on the last day. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." This is in direct conflict with your contention that Jesus is speaking of the universal call of the Gospel. If you you say that it still does'nt address man's free will ability to choose to believe or reject Christ, I would point out John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." I hope you don't mind if I include a brief commentary by a man considered even by Arminius as a great exegete. Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, 5 as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him.(John Calvin) Your Friend, John |
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6 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 62022 | ||
Greetings John! I'm heading out to work, so I'll have to make this brief! :-) Concerning your quote from Calvin, I don't believe that only those who are willing are drawn, I believe (per John 12) that all are drawn and (per John 6:45) that all are taught. However, only those who believe will be saved. But, this is off the track of this particular discussion since the subject is John 6:45. Did other translations ignore the face that 'listen' and 'learn' are active in voice? Here are the other translations: 1) NIV - "...Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." Active voice 2) NKJV - "...Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." Active voice 3) NRSV - "...Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me." Active Voice 4) RSV - "... Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me." Active voice 5) ASV - "...Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me." Active Voice 6) KJV - "....Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Active Voice 7) NASB - "...Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Active voice As you can see, every single translation has translated these first two verbal phrases as active voice. So, nothing I have said is in anyway in conflict with the major translation. Your previous post however treated them (and paraphrased them) as passive though. That was what caught my attention and why I responded. Well, I've got to run! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 62038 | ||
Dear Tim, In you haste you misunderstood my point. I wrote "Tell me, why have the translators at nasb and every other translation I have looked at failed to indicate that their translations do not take into account those nuances of greek and hebrew of which you speak. You stated that the tense of the verbs in v. 45 indicated that God calls all men and in a earlier post you boldly stated: " Both of these participle phrases are active in voice, not passive. So, it is not those who have been taught, but those who listen who come to Jesus." My question was meant to elicit from you the reason no translation indicates such an interpretation. Of couse it is obvious that all of those who merly listen do not come to Christ. Please explain. John |
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8 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 62040 | ||
John Reformed, it is my clear sense that quite frankly it is you in this instance who is talking in circles and not Tim. His post was perfectly clear to anyone who can read plain English with average comprehension and I see nothing in his post that he need explain, as you have asked him to do. I do not see that any viable refutation of anything in Tim's post has been accomplished. What I do see is just another in a series of attempts to drag out an issue by the transparent tactic of masking or evading the issue by asking another question or, as in this instance, asking for an explanation of a post that was clear to begin with and did an exemplary job at sound, exegetical explanation. The point is clear to me, and unless I am much mistaken, to other users of this forum as well, that you are a user who cannot or will not concede any point no matter what proof is submitted contrary to your view and who doggedly continues to drone on and on ad infinitum, grinding out the same views on the same subject. Your persistence of this practice, John, in spite of the efforts of a number of users of this forum to convey to you their express concern and displeasure at seeing this forum being used as a medium for one user to promote one particular view on basically one particular issue on and on, day after day, with no end in sight. You have been shown much patience and you have been afforded every opportunity to change your course, but you have not done so, so please don't try to convince anyone that you are being ill treated by anyone on this forum. And please don't delude yourself into thinking that these unending debates will be allowed to continue until you decide it's time for them to stop. In view of the history of this forum, it is most unlikely that this will be the case. --Hank | ||||||
9 | God is in control of every single atom? | Bible general Archive 1 | kalos | 62065 | ||
Hank: I agree with every word of your Note. I have only one thing to add at this time. To post to the Forum is not a right; it is a privilege. To abuse it is to lose it. Some people start out not believing this and then find out the hard way that it is true and WILL be enforced as needed. kalos |
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