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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33656 | ||
Hi Pastor Tim Tim I don't disagree with you on the one hand, but I lean toward saying that these Scriptures refer both to the position you have stated and to the issue of salvation. If we back up a bit in Romans 11, Paul talks about the covenant with Israel. Speaking to Gentiles, he explains the nature of God and His covenants: Romans 11 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (I take the first part to mean the same as Eph 2:9. In the second part he is saying that God hardened Israel's heart to open the way for the Gentiles... to serve His sovereign purpose) 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (But God will remain true to His covenant, even though Israel's heart is hard, ie they have rejected the New Covenant in Jesus) 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, (Again, Israel does not believe the gospel, BUT they are elect... chosen of God... and they will be saved... not because of what they do, but because of who they are... ie God's elect) 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (God's promise is true... He will not go back on His word... the covenant applies in spite of their hardness) Clearly this is a discussion of Israel as a nation, and God's covenant with the Jews. Yet, it reveals the character of God in that: 1) He chooses whom He will, and 2) once chosen, He is faithful in salvation. Words like "I will take away their sins" and "all of Israel will be saved" leave no doubt in my mind that we are talking salvation, both as a people group and individually. I don't think you can separate the two, as what would that mean? Certainly, the people of Israel were "elect"... chosen of God in the covenant with Abraham. Why do we find it difficult to follow that God could choose others through the new covenant? Supporting this we have other verses such as: John 5:21 (Jesus speaking) "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." The sovereignty of the Father extends to the Son, and He chooses... not our choice. John 6:37 (Jesus speaking) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Not "all who choose Me" but "all who are given to Me". Is there anyone who seeks God on his own? Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Thus, even our ability to seek God must be a gift from God. Are we not, then, chosen? We often quote Eph 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. which says that grace (God's means of salvation) is a gift, not dependent on our works. But read on to Eph 2:10 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. God is sovereign over kings and kingdoms to work His will. Is He not also sovereign over us as individuals to work His will? You closed by saying, "He is making the point that all who come in faith receive the promise." I would agree, but add that those who come only come because He draws them. It is always God first... a theme that I believe is consistent throughout Scripture, including the Old and New Covenants. Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (The "better hope" is Christ) John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." I'll stop there and let you noodle on this much. Blessings Curt |
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2 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Hecameforu | 33720 | ||
Hello Curt, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out". I think maybe this is divine Sovereignty and human responsibility. The Father gives men and women to the Son and Jesus will not cast those out who come to him but they must believe in him. I don't believe that everyone that is drawn to Jesus, accepts Jesus as their Savior. Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" Did not God Foreknow everyone? Of course he did, so then everyone is also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. It is the Holy Spirit that tugs at man's heart. Jesus said: "behold, I stand at the door and knock" it is then up to each individual to "hear" that knock and "open" the door. This cannot be for the believer because Jesus is already in the believer, supping with him. I think the thing is, it's not how a person gets to the point of Salvation but if indeed they are saved, if indeed one did accept Jesus into their heart. God bless! Barry |
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3 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33751 | ||
Thanks Brother Barry, Picking up your thought... In John 15:16, Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Jesus says specifically that we did not choose Him. If "the elect" is everyone, then what does the following verse mean? Matthew 24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." So is every human saved? I know you are not a universalist! When Jesus knocks, do we respond from our own heart? Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. When Jesus knocks, we hear Him because He give us ears to hear... You are right, it is the Holy Spirit that tugs at our heart, and He gives us a heart for Him. We ouselves cannot desire Him on our own. In the final analysis, you are correct when you say, "it's not how a person gets to the point of Salvation but if indeed they are saved, if indeed one did accept Jesus into their heart." After being chosen, of course. (ok, a little dogmatic, lol) Blessings Curt |
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