Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33640 | ||
Greetings Curt! In response to your question, I would say that the election being discussed is not an election to salvation, but an election of purpose. If you read my prior posts, you have seen this before. But to summarize my position, each of the quotes in Rom. 9 from the Old Testament are taken from contexts which illustrate God's sovereign right to work through nations and individuals as He sees fit. None of them deal with salvation. Isaac was chosen over Ishmael to be the one through whom Israel would descend. Jacob was choosen to be the one through whom Israel would descend. But, nowhere does it say that Esau was lost. Even Pharoah was raised up to glorify God. The "raising" here refers to his position, not his eternal destiny. And finally, the vessels of the potter all refer back to Old Testament passages which demonstrate God's sovereign right to use nations. All of these examples are given to answer the possible objection in Rom. 9:6-7 that God was unfair in not including all of the physical descendents of Israel into the Spiritual Israel. Thus, I think any attempt to read into this chapter the unconditional election of individuals to salvation is missing the context of the chapter. Paul is expanding Israel to include both Jews and Gentiles. He is making the point that all who come in faith receive the promise. And, that God's purpose in election is to have mercy of all (Rom. 11:32). What do you think? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33656 | ||
Hi Pastor Tim Tim I don't disagree with you on the one hand, but I lean toward saying that these Scriptures refer both to the position you have stated and to the issue of salvation. If we back up a bit in Romans 11, Paul talks about the covenant with Israel. Speaking to Gentiles, he explains the nature of God and His covenants: Romans 11 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (I take the first part to mean the same as Eph 2:9. In the second part he is saying that God hardened Israel's heart to open the way for the Gentiles... to serve His sovereign purpose) 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (But God will remain true to His covenant, even though Israel's heart is hard, ie they have rejected the New Covenant in Jesus) 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, (Again, Israel does not believe the gospel, BUT they are elect... chosen of God... and they will be saved... not because of what they do, but because of who they are... ie God's elect) 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (God's promise is true... He will not go back on His word... the covenant applies in spite of their hardness) Clearly this is a discussion of Israel as a nation, and God's covenant with the Jews. Yet, it reveals the character of God in that: 1) He chooses whom He will, and 2) once chosen, He is faithful in salvation. Words like "I will take away their sins" and "all of Israel will be saved" leave no doubt in my mind that we are talking salvation, both as a people group and individually. I don't think you can separate the two, as what would that mean? Certainly, the people of Israel were "elect"... chosen of God in the covenant with Abraham. Why do we find it difficult to follow that God could choose others through the new covenant? Supporting this we have other verses such as: John 5:21 (Jesus speaking) "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." The sovereignty of the Father extends to the Son, and He chooses... not our choice. John 6:37 (Jesus speaking) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Not "all who choose Me" but "all who are given to Me". Is there anyone who seeks God on his own? Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Thus, even our ability to seek God must be a gift from God. Are we not, then, chosen? We often quote Eph 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. which says that grace (God's means of salvation) is a gift, not dependent on our works. But read on to Eph 2:10 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. God is sovereign over kings and kingdoms to work His will. Is He not also sovereign over us as individuals to work His will? You closed by saying, "He is making the point that all who come in faith receive the promise." I would agree, but add that those who come only come because He draws them. It is always God first... a theme that I believe is consistent throughout Scripture, including the Old and New Covenants. Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (The "better hope" is Christ) John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." I'll stop there and let you noodle on this much. Blessings Curt |
||||||
3 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33666 | ||
Greetings Curt! I agree that Paul eventually begins to discuss individual salvation, especially in chapters 10 and 11. But, I think the point of Romans 9 is "Who is Israel?" Concerning Rom. 11, notice that Rom. 11:7 excludes those who were hardened from the elect. Yet, Rom. 11:23 holds out the possibility that they will be grafted in again, if they do not persist in their unbelief. Thus, I would say that election refers more to God's overall purpose and plan, rather then the eternal destinies of individuals. In fact, Rom. 11 indicates that one can become part of the elect. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33685 | ||
So, if I understand you correctly, you would say that all are elect? | ||||||
5 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33692 | ||
Greetings Curt! Allow me to quote Robert Shank definition of election. He says it much better than I! :-) "The election to salvation is corportate and comprehends individual men only in identification and association with the elect body." (Elect in the Son, pg. 48) To state election in Rom. 9-11 terms, election concerns the Israel of God. Those who respond to God in faith become part of the Israel of God and thus are elect. Those who do not respond to God in faith are excluded from the Israel of God and thus are not elect. However, according to Rom. 11:23, if they do not persist in unbelief, they too can become part of the Israel of God. My understanding of the purpose of election is focused upon Rom. 11:32. Everything God has done throughout history has been for the express purpose of having mercy upon all. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
6 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33698 | ||
Brother Tim This is a very enticing argument. One difficulty I have with it, though, is that the word elect implies a "choosing from". If there are chosen ones, are there not also "not chosen" ones, otherwise, what was the choice? If God has chosen all, then why did He say He was choosing? It is warm and fuzzy to say everyone is welcome, but I'm struggling with whether this isn't just my preference, not God's reality. Still thinking Curt |
||||||