Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33592 | ||
Greetings all: Can we focus on verses 10-15 as a starting point? I'll jump in with the Curt Amplified Version, if you will tolerate it. Feel free to join in at will! Romans 9 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: (God had chosen Jacob over Esau before they were born, before either had acted on their sinful nature, to show us mortals that "election" was really election) 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (His call is all, our response is zero) 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! (because we are all sinners, and all deserve condemnation, so who can complain?) 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (God is sovereign... He gets to decide who is elect... period) 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (our desire for God and our works mean nothing in terms of salvation. God, in His mercy chooses us, period). Ok, folks... what think ye? Curt |
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2 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | wak | 33610 | ||
Did Christ reject anyone who desired him? WAK (our desire for God and our works mean nothing in terms of salvation. God, in His mercy chooses us, period). |
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3 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33632 | ||
In light of Romans 3:10-11, who is it that desires God, apart from God giving that desire? Romans 3 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Who gives us the ability to desire Him, according to His purposes? Romans 9 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Is it God plus my actions, or is God's grace sufficient and complete? Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. I struggle with this as well, my friend. But this is Scripture, thus we must regard it carefully as we can. If I had to answer your question, I would likely say that Christ rejects no one who the Father has called. John 5:21 (Jesus speaking) "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." John 6:37 (Jesus speaking) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Blessings Curt |
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4 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33643 | ||
Greetings Curt! I agree that in our "lostness", none of us seeks God (Rom. 3). Jesus even makes it clear in John 6:44 that no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father, "‘‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."" However, John 12:32, also says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” The word 'draw' in both verses is exactly the same Greek word. Thus, I don't see any contradiction between the 'no one seeks Him" of Rom. 3:11 and the "whosoever wills" of the rest of Scripture. Rom. 3:11 describes us in our lostness before the cross. The "whosoever wills" reflect the reality after the cross. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | benjamite | 33647 | ||
Hello Brother Tim, That is an interesting thought. However, there are some who would say that in John 12:32, the idea is that He will draw all "peoples", meaning not just Jews, to Himself. Perhaps He is actively drawing from all nations. ("Men", as I recall is not in the Greek, is not in the orignal. Can you verify that for me?) Would this fit the context of the passage? The word "draw" if I am not mistaken is active. Meaning that what is drawn actually comes, like a sword or a fishing net. Obviously, if it could be passive (i.e., the drawing only works if the object drawn wants to be drawn) then John 6:44 could possibly be interpreted that way. Your thoughts? In Him, Benjamite |
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6 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33649 | ||
Greetings Benjamite! I have enjoyed reading your posts my new friend! You are correct that the word "men" is not in the text. 'All' is masculine plural adjective though. Frankly, I have never been impressed with the interpretation that "all" refers to "all kinds of people or nations". IMHO it is an exampe of reading something into the text to make it agree with a particular doctrine. Concerning the context though, notice that there is no mention here of the relationship between Jews and Gentiles, as there is in some of Paul's passages. Thus, I think the plainest and simplest reading is to take it at face value. For instance, if I send you a one line e-mail which simply said, "I love all". Would you assume that I meant "all kinds of people" or would you assume that I meant "all people"? Unless there is some other qualifying word, "like all brothers", or "all believers", or "all nations", I would take it as a reference to all individuals. About Jn. 6:44, the verb is active. But the distinction between active and passive concerns doing the action as opposed to be acted upon, not on whether or not the object wants to be drawn. Notice though that John 6:44 never says that the one drawn "will come". It says that he is not "able to come" unless drawn. Thus, I see the two verses as saying that because of our sin, we are not able to come to God, unless we are drawn. However, at the cross, Jesus drew all men to Him. Thus, now we are able to come, if we choose. Thus, John 6:40 - "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”" Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 33672 | ||
Tim: You wrote: 'Notice though that John 6:44 never says that the one drawn "will come". It says that he is not "able to come" unless drawn.' You are correct. It is John 6:37 which says that they WILL come. We can imply that, because Christ will raise them up on the last day, those people mentioned in 6:44 are people who WILL come. --Joe! |
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8 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33674 | ||
Greetings Joe! I saw that verse! :-) I was going to do some more research on that one. It uses an unusual word for 'come'. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 33749 | ||
Just out of curiosity, this Greek-ignorant brother would like to know if the same word for come is used throughout this passage (v. 37 to the end of the chapter). --Joe! |
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10 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 33780 | ||
Greetings Joe! Good question! There are actually several different verbs. They are, in order of appearance: John 6:37 - "shall come" is the Future, Active, Indicative, 3rd, Singular of 'heko'. John 6:37 - "the one who comes" is the Present, Deponent, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Accusative of 'erchomai'. John 6:38 - "I have come down" is the Perfect, Active, Indicative, 1st, Singular of 'katabaino'. John 6:41 - "that came down" is the Aorist, Active, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Nomative of 'katabaino'. John 6:44 - "to come" is the Aorist, Active, Infinitive of 'erchomai'. John 6:45 - "comes" is the Present, Deponent, Indictive, 3rd, Plural of 'erchomai'. John 6:50 - "which comes down" is the Present, Active, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Nomative of 'katabaino'. John 6:51 - "that came down" is the Aorist, Active, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Nomative of 'katabaino'. John 6:58 - "which came down" is the Aorist, Active, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Nomative of 'katabaino'. John 6:65 - "come" is the Aorist, Active, Infinitive of 'erchomai'. I don't know that there is any special significance to the variation. 'Erchomai' seems to be used mostly in terms of the individuals who come to Christ. The only unusual features that I noticed about John 6:37 is that the pronoun is neuter and that an unusual word for 'come' is used there. I'm not sure it means anything. I just wanted to check it out some more. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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