Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | benjamite | 33565 | ||
Right. (Since I consider myself a "4-pointer", I switched the "L" in TULIP to "U" for "Unlimited atonement".) I got (or paraphrased) my definitions from James White's "The Potter's Freedom". (A response to Geisler's "Chosen But Free" - these would be the two books I mentioned I read since Christmas.) I also see Biblical support for White's "6th point" - God is Free (but that wasn't the question, this time around). Back to the issue at hand, "L" Limited atonement - quoting from PF p. 40, "The intention of Christ in His cross-work was to save His people specifically. Therefore Christ's sacrifice is perfect and complete, for it actually accomplishes perfect redemption." To be honest, it sounds great, except I see too many verses which I can't harmonize with this view. Universal Propitation - I mentioned 1 John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Universal Love - John 3:16 Universal Redemption - 2 Peter 2:1 speaks of false prophets "denying the Master who bought them". The above verses are my own thoughts, before consulting other sources. Charles Ryrie rightly asks, "Did Christ purpose...to make provision for the salvation of all people?" (Basic Theology, 318) I say He did. 1 Timothy 2:4, "(God our Savior,) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.", v. 6, "ransom for all" Note: 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't fit this mold, because the "you" Peter is speaking to is the church. (cf. 1:1, 3:1, and 3:8) (i.e., Christ will return when His body/bride is complete - when the church is saved.) 1 Tim 4:10 "..living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." Yes, He saves believers, but He is the Savior of all men. "All men" is not limited to the elect in this case because it is in contrast to believers. Hebrews 2:9, "...by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." It is only after this verse that the author narrows the scope to "many sons". Acts 17:30-31, "...declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in rightousness..." the call goes out to everyone. These are just a few verses. Are they enough? For now, they are for me, but I'll have to do a little digging to find more. In Him, Ben |
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2 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 33582 | ||
Ben: Thanks for contributing. I am sure that you have examined the Reformed view of passages which say that Christ came to save "the world." What is your assessment of them? Regarding Hebrews 2:9, I hold that the following verse is not a contrast to this one, but rather a qualifier to it. I do not see the author claiming that Jesus died for everyone who has ever existed in one verse and then saying that God through Christ brings salvation to many sons. They are not two separate thoughts, but an elaboration. The Reformed view of 1 Timothy 2 understands "all men" to mean "all kinds of men," which fits well with verses 1-2. Should we pray for all men AND kings and those in authority? Aren't kings and those in authority part of the category of "all men"? Again, many see the appositive phrase "for kings and those in authority" to be a qualifying statement. The one that really interests me is 1 Timothy 4:10. John Piper suggests that the common grace that both the believer and the unbeliever receives is a result of the cross as well. In other words, the reason that God didn't utterly and IMMEDIATELY destroy Adam and Eve as well as everyone else who has committed sin against Him is because the mercy he shows them was bought at the cross. That is how, according to Piper, that Christ can be the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Whatever one's interpretation, it is pretty clear that there is a different degree of salvation between these two groups signified by the word "especially." Let me know what you think! --Joe! |
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3 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33588 | ||
Hi Joe I'm glad you jumped in! We may need a few five point Calvinists around when this discussion gets going. By the way, are you "ReformER Joe" or "ReformED Joe"? I would think in the PCA it would be Reformed Joe, unless of course you are reading Ogden's book The New Reformation (an excellent read, by the way). However, if you are a reformER, I sure could use your help over here in the PCUSA! lol On your point, would the "all men" verses not also signify the opening of God's covenant with Israel to the whole of mankind? In other words, not just different classes of people, but ethnically different people groups... actually all people groups. Paul certainly makes this case in a variety of places to the Gentiles. Blessings Curt |
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4 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 33670 | ||
Well, I am ReformER Joe. As Martin Luther put it, "semper reformanda": the church must always be reforming itself. The spirit of every age and its false teaching is always at the door to come in and twist the truth. American evangelicalism in general (and not just the PCUSA) certainly could use some reform right about now. I am glad to know that there are still folks within the denomination to which you belong who hold to the truth as revealed in Scripture. It must be tough to be so outnumbered! I always think of people like you and confessional Anglicans, and wonder how you guys manage to hang in there! I agree on the "all" verses, primarily because we would have a contradiction in Scripture otherwise. --Joe! |
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5 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 33677 | ||
Joe, this comes from a former PCUSA elder who could not manage to hang in there. For more than 35 years my wife and I wore our PCUSA badges dutifully, though not always proudly during the latter years, to the meeting house on Sundays. Five years ago I resigned from the Session, we stopped paying our PCUSA union dues, and quitted ourselves of the incessant turmoil that was going on within the denomination, from the grass roots all the way up the hierarchy to the General Assembly. We have found peace in another communion. The last five years have been the happiest five years in our Christian life. To our amazement we did find a congregation of believers who honor and teach the word of God and denounce secular humanism. We are reeling from the shock still. --Hank | ||||||
6 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33708 | ||
Hank Good for you! Sorry for the PCUSA. I'm an elder in a great little PCUSA church, and believe me, we have had the same struggles along the way, including the never-ending discussion as to whether we should keep our church in the denomination. I fully appreciate why you left, but am always sorry to see believers leave. As a missionary reporting from the PCUSA field, you'll be happy to know (if you dont already) the the current denominational vote on sexual purity is going very well for the evangelicals. With 1/3 of the presbyteries in, the vote is running about 3 to 1 in favor of sexual purity, and against the ordination of practicing homosexuals. While many outside the denomination would say "why is that even a question", we who feel called and planted here see God at work, just as any missionary would feel. Slowly, evangelicals are reclaiming the denomination with considerable help from our Lord. The "Confessing Church" movement is really taking hold and, while there are a regions which remain hotbeds of apostacy (Baltimore - my home - being one), the denomination as a whole seems to be moving back toward a personal relationship with God in Christ. For this we give praise and thanks to God! Blessings Curt |
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7 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 33712 | ||
Curt, the sad thing is that many erstwhile Presbyterians, unlike Dottie and me, have left PCUSA and never found a church home. They sit around the TV on the Lord's Day playing with the remote button to find a church service somewhere, or a ball game. Or they head out for a Sunday brunch and a game of golf or tennis. I'm happy that there is a movement to swing PCUSA back to sanity, and to God. It was sad for us to see over many years the slow and agonizing way the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America was dying on the vine, or better put, dying without the Vine. I do wish you and your local congregation well in its efforts to help stem the tide. --Hank | ||||||