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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Early church support for Peter as Pope? | Bible general Archive 1 | kalos | 13781 | ||
How easily we Monday morning quarterbacks criticize the decisions and question the motives of the reformers. I do not now nor have I ever belonged to the Lutheran church, but I shudder to think where the Christian church would be today without Martin Luther. This reminds me of a couple of months ago when the forum was on some kick where they were questioning the motives of the Apostles. I know not what others may do, but as for me I choose not to go there. Martin Luther "allowed himself" to be separated from the church? His only alternative was to lie and recant what he believed with all his heart. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Roman Catholic church would have cleaned up its act on its own without the influence of the Reformers. Do you like reading the Bible in your own language? Martin Luther was one of the first to translate the Bible into the language of the people. |
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2 | Early church support for Peter as Pope? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 13793 | ||
JVH0212 You again jump in way too deep. Read what I said. Did I say Luther was wrong? Did I say the church was right? The situation of the church at the time of Luther was despicable at best and horrendous at worst, that is fact. What Luther did was courageous. It is what occurred after that I question. I see many men jumping in on one side or the other of the issue not for Godly reasons but for reasons of gain, power, and probably some with anarchical feelings wanting to see the “establishment brought down”. Incidentally Luther’s intention was not withdrawal out of the church but reformation within it. And yes he was left with no option but to leave. However by his own testimony he realized people on both sides of the issue had used him for political, financial and power seizing gains thus forcing that conclusion. He expressed regret he allowed it to happen, again not what he did but for allowing others to get between him and the church. Also remember Luther was not all saint, he is the guy that said Jews were vermin and that their tongues should be removed from their heads by going in through the back of their necks. Not the most Christian like statement wouldn’t you agree? Luther made many contributions to religion for which I'm most thankful. However that was not my question or statement. I questioned how many (without naming names) men of the reformation were in it for the right reasons. I then wondered, out loud if you will, what would the church look like today if all those men that were involved for all the wrong reason had remained out. JVH0212 I was not defending the church nor tearing down the reformers I was as you say Monday morning quarterbacking and wondering what if. Sorry if that offended you! |
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3 | Early church support for Peter as Pope? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 13928 | ||
Ed: Actually, what you said was that "only God knows" whether the Reformation was good or evil and resulted in a weak, ineffective church. Do you really think that God leaves it all up to some cosmic "guessing game" like that? This all sprang out of Brian overreacting when I asked for a simple shred of evidence for a claim he was making. I did not declare him to be wrong (despite the fact I think he is). I simply wanted him to support his assertion, since the burden of proof lies on him. I did so in a polite marrer, and still I have not received an answer to my question, only a cry of being attacked which served to distract some individuals (*ahem*) from the issue of whether any such support exists. And then someone jumped in way too deep and moved the conversation in this direction. Wonder who that could have been, Ed? No one thinks that Luther and Calvin were saints (least of all, luther and Calvin themselves). Isn't it great, though, that sometimes when we sinful humans construct our soapboaxes with human hands, there is a clearly biblical, divine impetus behind it? :) --Joe! |
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4 | Early church support for Peter as Pope? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 14025 | ||
Joe First I question my wisdom replying to you, your mind seems to be shut to any idea other than the ones you presently hold. That's okay but it doesn’t lend to sharing of ideas very well. However I venture in. First I believe God gives us a free will, which to me means he allows us to make choices. I believe God leads us upon life’s highway and there are forks in the road. God allows us to choose which fork to take. God knows the forks we will choose but God allows us to make the choice ourselves. I further believe that situations, past experiences, beliefs, faith and many other similar factors help determine the choices we make. Since the path we are on isn’t plotted in concrete God will bring things into our life that will eventually take us to where God desires us to be. Where we start and where we end are up to God, how we got there and how many forks in the road we had to take to get there are determined by us. I believe this holds true for living entities like the church of Jesus Christ. Studying church history has convinced me the church just like us at times, chooses the less expeditious fork and therefore is forced to experience things that aren’t always positive. Two examples of this that stand out to me is the fork that lead the church into the dark ages, with the inquisitions and crusades. Another is the reformation, I believe some bad choices were made and we are still paying the price. Does that mean God has lost control? Absolutely not! Is the church where God wants it? I don’t believe so. Is the church going to get to the place God has for it? Absolutely yes! Was there an easier way to get there? Only God know that. Hence the answer I gave that seems to have so astounded your sensibilities and caused you to respond to my response to JVH0212 the way you did. Shelah EdB |
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