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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | Pastor Glenn | 96633 | ||
Truthfinder, The Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. Quoting from Radioman2's post: "...This passage is speaking of Wisdom, and for those who teach this is Jesus the evidence is not there. Another point is that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was God's first creation and therefore believe this to be speaking of Jesus and like to use different Bible Versions that would indicate that this Wisdom was created...." By this strange reasoning, God was not really "God" until after He "created" wisdom. How could He have been God before He had wisdom. Can you see that this Jehovah's Witness argument is both anti-Jehovah, as well as, anti-Christ? Maybe by reading somewhere between the lines of the NWT it is written: "Duh..., well I think I will create wisdom"? :o( Pastor Glenn |
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2 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | Truthfinder | 96661 | ||
Hi Pastor Glenn, The point about wisdom is logically that wisdom had no beginning since it is one of the four attributes of the Almighty. Thus wisdom is pictorial of something that had a beginning and a direct correlation in both thought and wording exists in Proverbs and Col 1:15 for drawing an accurate and logical conclusion. Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was as Col 1:15 tells us according to the NJB, “the first-born of all creation.” He was “the beginning of God’s creation.” (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). “Beginning” [Greek, ar·khe´] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the ‘beginner’ of God’s creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe´ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of “beginning.” Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God’s invisible creations. But now notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative “Wisdom” in the Bible book of Proverbs: “Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world.” (Again according to the New Jerusalem Bible) While the term “Wisdom” is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence. What is really interesting about the rebuttals made by pro-Trinitarians during the Nicene confession is they were using the LXX (regarding it as “inspired”) and it, the LXX, translates the Hebrew qanah with the Greek, ektizo (a form of ktizo, meaning “create” or “make”). Thus they failed to provide an acceptable interpretation to prove Jesus was not Created. This is seen from Athanasius’ (c. 296-373CE) effort, over many pages to conclude, “The Lord created me a beginning of His ways,’ as if to say, “My Father hath prepared for Me a body, and has created Me for men in behalf of their salvation.”--Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 2, chap. 19. P 374. Yes, Athanasius interprets Proverbs 8:22 as a reference to the Word’s (Jesus Christ’s) sojourn in the flesh. As “Wisdom” in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was “by his [God’s] side, a master craftsman.” (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that “through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.”—Today’s English Version (TEV). So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: “For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.” 1 Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition. Truthfinder |
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3 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | Pastor Glenn | 96874 | ||
Truthfinder, I am glad that you realize that God had wisdom throughout all eternity. But, would God say things like: Matthew 4:10b ... "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'[ Deuteronomy 6:13] and then throw in "His junior partner"? Is He trying to confuse us? The answer is no. We can serve Jesus because He is also God. Notice that without recognizing Christ's full deity, you can not worship Jesus, you can not really honor Jesus fully, you cannot fully respect Him for who He is. I challenge you now to show me one scripture that warns us not to worship Christ, or to honour Him, or show Him too much respect. Deuteronomy 6:13 cannot be used since Heb 1 shows even the angels must worship Him. By your theology it seems that any angels could have stepped in and died for our sins. But what angel would have had power to get back up from the dead as Christ did by His own power? John 10 17"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." 19Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. |
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4 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | flinkywood | 96878 | ||
This is an excellent post, Pastor Glenn. Colin |
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5 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | Pastor Glenn | 96882 | ||
Is 45 5I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; 7I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.' 8"Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the LORD, have created it. 9"Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, "What are you making?' Or shall your handiwork say, "He has no hands'? 10Woe to him who says to his father, "What are you begetting?' Or to the woman, "What have you brought forth?"' 11Thus says the LORD, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons; And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. 12I have made the earth, And created man on it. I--My hands--stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward," Says the LORD of hosts. The LORD, the Only Savior 14 Thus says the LORD: "The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush And of the Sabeans, men of stature, Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours; They shall walk behind you, They shall come over in chains; And they shall bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying, "Surely God is in you, And there is no other; There is no other God."' 15Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior! 16They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols. 17But Israel shall be saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever. 18For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. We see the Lord Jesus throughout scripture. Why can't others see? Praise the Lord Jesus! |
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6 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | flinkywood | 96883 | ||
Weren't you once blind, Pastor Glenn? I was, and deaf. Colin. |
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7 | Jesus is wisdom argument leads nowhere. | Rev 3:14 | Pastor Glenn | 96886 | ||
Yes Colin, I was once blind and deaf also. But I often think of how the men of Ninevah believed only one message from only one preacher. As wicked as they were, they quickly believed God and repented. I would hate to see them having to rise for the prosecution against someone that heard God's warning over and over. Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. |
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