Results 1 - 2 of 2
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Truthfinder | 96115 | ||
Hi Makarios, So, I see you truly believe what you believe? Good. That really is admirable. You mention that nothing will shake the faith that you have in your Lord or in His Holy Word. I sincerely hope that you don't think I would do that. What I show you, you will find does not contradict any other verse! Since I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, my beliefs are NOT contradicted by any single verse. Thus one's faith in God's Word should be strengthened by what I show. It is faultless. Regardless, my posts are not prepared and presented in an attempt to change anyone. Many try and say that my beliefs have no Scriptural grounds. I merely show why I believe as I do from the Scriptures and scholarly research. So, select a verse, but please tell me what your understanding of that verse is and why it supports your argument. I believe our topic was whether or not Jesus was "created" or "is the one creating". Why don't we complete this first since it too is a part of the study of the validity of the trinity doctrine. Revelation 3:14 is the topic verse. The issue is the translation of the Greek word ‘arkhe’. I will now present some facts. 1). The authoritative Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by William Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich says the meaning of ‘arche’ in Revelation 3:14 is ‘first cause.” 2). Bauer’s lexicon (BAGD) lists on page 112 ‘arche’ under definition number 2. The first cause. 3). Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·khe´. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) Therefore we conclude that there are at least two possibilities, the one by the first two authorities (definition number 2,) and the one by the third authority and also chosen by the NASB, RS, KJ, Dy, CC, NWT and numerous other Bible translations, “beginning”. This selection would mean that Jesus was created. What I find interesting is that Bauer’s lexicon provides no biblical passages as parallels to that meaning it suggests. Also, BAGD goes on to say regarding the use of arkhe in Rev. 3:14 “the meaning beginning equals first created is linguistically possible.” Possible? Well, notice the use of similar language in the NT. A check of all the occurrences in the NT of arkhe followed by a genitive expression (as in Rev. 3:14) shows that it always denotes a beginning or first part of something. Examples: Mt 24:8; Mr 13:8,19; John 2:11; Php 4:15; Heb 5:12; 6:1; 7:3; 2 Peter 3:4. Even when used without a genitive expression arkhe means ‘beginning’ some 32 times. Mt 19:4,8; 24:21; Mr 1:1 etc. Of the remaining 13 occurrences of arkhe in NT, 2 are used for the ‘four corners” (“extremities” NWT) of the earth. The final 11 are used to denote ‘governments” or “rulers,” and with such a meaning are always used with other expressions denoting “power” (Gr dynamis) or “authority” (Gr. Exousia). Thus, the way I see it, the use of arkhe in general, and when used with a genitive expression specifically, favors the meaning “beginning” in Revelation 3:14. The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. And according to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.” Truthfinder |
||||||
2 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Makarios | 96147 | ||
Greetings Truthfinder, Not much of what you have actually shared makes a whole lot of sense, nor was it shared within the context of any specified passage. Here is what Strong's Exhaustive Concordance shares about "beginning" in Rev. 3:14.. "arche ar-khay' From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." Also, none of the sources that you have used could possibly lead you (or anyone else) to a conclusion that "beginning" means "created" (or, as it where, that Jesus was created) as you have so specified. The lexicons that you use only attempt to tell you what the specified word means. They do not answer the question of meaning based on context of a specific verse. :-) Therefore, your conclusions are entirely baseless, and your studies are entirely worthless. You will be unable to convince of ANYTHING unless you can answer the question WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE. Until then, I am just going to run Scripture after Scripture after Scripture at you until you do. :-) So let me take apart some more incorrect conclusions that you have come to in studying specific verses.. Makarios |
||||||